Sunday, 27 January 2013

Did Tamil originate from sanskrit ?

There have been many blogs and debates on the internet on the origin of tamil from sanskrit. I am going to give an overview on this topic. But before moving to the topic, all the discussions on this topic is started by a person who has no knowledge of both the Languages .This leads to a Biased idea because he/She is not aware of the other Language.Well , my mother Tongue is Tamil and I have been learning Sanskrit for over 15 years. So there is no need for any doubt on by authority on this topic.

Agattiyam is the oldest work in tamil which was written around 300-350 BC. This was written in Sangam era .

Agattiyam was written by Agasthiyar. Agasthiyar is one of the Saptha Rishis mentioned in the vedas. He is also the author of Agathiya Samhita (Written in sanskrit)
Aga means Mountian and Asthi means Thrower (Best example is Brahma Asthram in Mahabaratha)
Now the oldest author of Tamil is also the author of a sanskrit work and also has a Sanskrit Name.
He is beleived to be sent by Lord Shiva , Who is also been described in Rudram and Chamakam in the vedas.

So he is a Vedic Sage who travelled south. Moreover Comparison of  Ayurveda and Siddha medicine can solve this doubt because Siddha has been heavily borrowed from Ayurveda.

Now we have to analyze the meanings of few words.

Tolkappiyam- Kappiyam is originated from Kavyam which is a Sanskrit word. This is because there are many instances of the usage of the Word "Kavyam" in sanskrit literature much before.So the argument is "Tolkappiyam being the oldest work in Tamil itself has a sanskrit word in it"
Sangam- This is used to denote the earliest period in Tamil History .Now Sangam is a derivative from sanskrit word "Sangaha" which means community or union. The best example for this is TriveniSangam in Allahabad where the 3 rivers meet and the place where the Khumbamela is Held. Moreover the Buddhists were organized into Sangha .So again here tamil is using a sanskrit word.

The very oldest work in tamil and the period in Tamil itself was written by a vedic Sage .Which means that Tamil has a strong lineage from Sanskrit.

It is interesting to note that Both sanskrit and Tamil have the Alphabets in an order . It starts form Ah , Aah...and goes to ooh. And the consonants also start with Ka and goes on. The Same applies to every Indian Language as well.The only Letter unique to tamil is Zha .
Now we have to see the origin of this structure in Tamil and Sanskrit.
The oldest date for the origin of tamil is around 300 BC(start of Sangam Era) .
Moreover The sounds E,Ee,Uh and Ooh in Tamil is also similar to that of Sanskrit.

There have been many studies by Indian Scholars on dating the vedas. They have consistently been around 3000 BC .Though the vedas are known as Aanadhi (Without start or end) , they were Compiled around 3000 BC by Veda Vyvasa.  Now If we see the Mahabaratha , the study on Astronomical positions of the Mahabaratha War pointed the time of war as 3102 BC. Since there was a character named Vyasa in Mahabaratha, this can also support this argument. Further more  According to the puranas , The Kali Yuga also started around this period 3000 BC (ie.After the kurukshetra war)

Reference for my work :- Research paper ->"There is no scientific basis for aryan invasion theory" By T.R.S Prasanna Published in Current Science Vol 103 No.2 ,25th July 2012


This link has proofs to show the vedas date around 3000 BC.

Sanskrit is more than 2500 years older than Tamil. This gives a lot of room for evolution. And the Sanskrit Alphabets are much older than Tamil.

If we analyze any Tamil work, they have always been inspired from sanskrit Literature.
Examples are,
i)Sage Agasthya was mentioned in the puranas (Written before the Sangam Era) but the Tamil claim him as one of the first person to speak Tamil. Ayurveda from him developed into Siddha medicine.
ii)Shiva(Mentioned in Vedas- Rudram) is adopted by the Tamils.

Now let us Take an example from the very first verse of The Thirukurral.

Akara Mudhala Ezhuththellaam Aadhi
Bagavan Mudhatre Ulaku

Aadhi-Aadhi means First in Sanskrit (used in the Rig Veda)
Bhagavan means God in Sanskrit (used in Mahabaratham and various other works)
Ulaku-Loka means World in sanskrit (Used in multiple Places)

Tamil yet again has heavily borrowed from Sanskrit.
The oldest Work in Tamil - Tholkappiyam itself contains a Sanskrit word.
The oldest period of Tamil history (Sangam) itself has a Sanskrit word.
The First Verse of Thirukural itself has 3 Sanskrit words.

So what more to Say and Argue when the oldest and the first things in Tamil had Sanskrit words ??

This is an Incident where the Pro-Dravidian people wanted to prove that Tamil was Older.

The Concept of Dravidian in Indus started much after the Indus Civilization was re-Discovered.THe fact is that No part of Tamil History has recorded Indus in any Literary work.

The point is that ,These people are adapting the stories from the west to Strengthen the Historical dominance of Tamil Language which was never True. My argument is that why didn't these people mention about Indus before the Westerners ?
But If we take Sanskrit for Example, Dwaraka has been discovered under water and Ram Sethu was also discovered as recorded in the Sanskrit Literary works.

 For example, even the party name - “Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam” – the world “Dravida” itself is a Sanskrit word, which means south. "Udaya Suryan" are Sanskrit words. Karunanidhi, Ramasamy, (Ala)giri, Anna(durai) are all Sanskrit names. Even in the word "Maa-nadu", the first syllable "Maa" is a Sanskrit based word (that is, "Maha")

If we take the Shiva Puja, which is a integral part of any Smarta or Shaivite's Pooja,
Under the Neivedya Mantra,

Pushpanjilam PradasyamiGruhaana karunanidhae I
Neelakanta Virupaaksham vaamaardha girijaa Prabho   II
Umamaheshwaraaya Namaha Pushpaanjilim Samar payami   I
Mantrapushpam suvarna pushpam samarpayaami II

here, we can see the usage of the words Karunanidhi and Giri. So The DK claims can be rubbished from the very fact that their leader's name itself is Sanskrit. Periyar's original name Ramaswami is also sanskrit .The worst part is that their organization's name Dravid is used in Valmik's Ramayanam , yet another Sanskrit Work.

So the ultimate conclusion is left to you readers. You decide which is older and how did Tamil Originate? Post your comments and Share your information
I have put a lot of efforts into this Blog. Mistakes may have crept in and Please point them out so i will be able to make this more reliable .

This Blog has no intention to hurt any Tamils , But this is to reveal the truth.Tamil is one of the most beautiful  Language in the world.Tamil is every bit worthy enough to gain a Classical Status. I would Discuss more truths in my following Blogs.

I thank Mr.Jayarathina Madharasan for pointing out mistakes and making valuable contribution in the making of this Article.


  1. Good job guys, talk it out. That's the only way truth can come through.

  2. To all the readers. The first 10 comments (5 from the Admin and 5 from Mr.Jayarathina Madharasan) have been removed as it contained the corrections in this blog. The above Blog is the Re-edited version.

  3. I have read this rubbish many times before and the refutations with evidence to the misleading unscientific untruth that this article is based on.. Very juvenile.

    1. I have given all the relevant sources for my claims .I have discussed all the oldest Tamil works and the Sanskrit words in them. Simpy claiming it as "Unscientific untruth " will not do the job. Your comment is very Juvenile because you have no proofs to substantiate your point of view/claim.

      So if you plan to differ my view,give enough evidences instead of claiming Unscientific without any proofs to support it.

  4. Even though you have done good research and have provided reliable information, it is unscientific to derive conclusions about the origin of Tamil from this information. Yes, Sanskrit literary works that are currently in existence are older than Tamil works. Yes, Tamil borrows words from Sanskrit. But neither of these facts can prove Tamil originated from Sanskrit or the other way round. You have said Tamil borrows "heavily" from Sanskrit. This is false, the oldest Tamil words hardly derive anything from Sanskrit, except only a few words. In fact, linguistic, DNA, phonetic and archaeological data have proved and it is widely accepted that Tamil originates from an older Proto-Dravidian language while Sanskrit is an Indo-Iranian language and both are entirely independent of each other. Some of the things in this article are just illogical and rubbish. Because Agasthiyar wrote Aggathiyam who has a Sanskrit name, Tamil has a Sanskrit lineage? A person cannot speak two completely different languages? Such illogical claims discredits this article. However, there are scientific peer reviewed papers by the scientific community of the world which have agreed that Tamil has an independent genealogy than Aryan languages. Franklin C. Southworth (2005) in his paper "Linguistic archaeology of South Asia" has proved that Tamil descends from Proto-Dravidian spoken around 3000 BCE around the Godavari basin. There is material and linguistic evidence that prove that Tamil is associated with the Neolithic complexes of South India and are non-Sanskrit and non-Aryan. So, no, Tamil did not originate from Sanskrit.

    1. Bala,
      On Mr.Franklin, I want to know if he is a believer of the Aryan Invasion Theory? Knowing this would enable me to give a better answer to your question.

    2. No, He was not. He was a very specialised and acclaimed Indologist.

  5. Another interesting thing that I have noted. You have said that scholars have dated the Vedas around 3000 BCE... I agree. You have also said Agasthiyar is mentioned in the Vedas...I agree again. But you are saying Agasthiyar also wrote Agathiyam in 300-350 BCE. So you are implying Agasthiyar lived for at least 2500 years? You may believe in this (and I may be I believe in this too), but the fact is that this is highly unscientific. If you are going to use such scientifically unacceptable claims, then what is no point in using logic at all and anyone can say any non sense they want. Secondly, a very large number of facts that you have given here have no credibility. Seriously, I could write an essay explaining why this article is very wrong and unscientific. You have also assumed that Mahabharatha is dated 3102BCE even though the origins of the text only fall between 8th or 9th BCE. Going by this logic, even Tholkappiyam can be placed at 8000 BCE. Such things are just religious and north Indian propaganda and has absolutely no science or credibility behind them. All these things have made this article an absolute joke. I dont mean to hurt the author or religious sentiments, but if you want to prove something logically, then stick to science and evidence. Otherwise, anyone can claim anything and get away with it.

    1. I am extremely sorry for giving a very late reply.I too, had the same doubt in the first but I am very happy that you raised this question.Back then and even now, people get named after great men.

      Take the example of Sage Bharadwaja , there was another person named Bharadwaja, who authored the Vimanika Shastra. In fact, Bharadwaja is not the saptha rishi for this manvantara, which makes it impossible for him to author the Vimanika Shastra. Moreover the saptha Rishis don't write the Shastras.So it is evident that The Sage bharadwaja is not the person who authored the Vimanika Shastra.

      First you have to understand that the Saptha Rishis keep changing for every manvantra and the List for the current Manvantra is Atri,Brihu,Kutsa,Vasishta,Gautaama,Kaashyapa and Aangirasa. Here the name of Agastya doesn't even come!
      I just mentioned that he was one of the saptha Rishi,but I did not mention that he belonged to the current manvantra. There are various sets of saptha rishis, who vary from Manvantra to Manvantara.
      I just mentioned the term "Agastyar" just to show that it is also a sanskrit word.

      But if you take the puranas (Which I don't believe in )on the other hand, it mentions Agasthya getting a order from Shiva to travel down south, though as per the Vedas, there is no separate god (He is within you) and in fact, The saptha rishis have understood that they are god themselves (Aham Brahma Asmi)

      This is contradictory isn't it?
      All these contradiction were created because of Puranas.
      This is pretty confusing indeed because the time span is very huge. The same logic can be applied to the Character Radha, who was never mentioned in Mahabaratham or Srimad Bhagawadam, but comes as a female friend of Krishna in many other stories.

      On mahabaratham,
      The incident Mahabaratham occurred in 3102BCE and this was proved scientifically by "Institute of Scientific research on Vedas" and this was presented as a paper on a national seminar, which was presided by Dr.AJ Abdul Kalam as the Chief guest.They have published a book "Historicity of Vedic and Ramayana Eras", you could pick a copy of it. But it doesn't deal about Mahabaratha in Detail

      Back to the point.
      The last documented proof of Mahabaratha falls as 8-9 cent BCe. There is a difference between actual date and documented date. Going by your same claim, there is NO PROOF that Tolkappiyam existed prior to 2-3 cent BCe.
      Plus, It is clearly said that Mahabaratha was written by Veda Vyasa.There can be no confusion on this because though there may be many Vyasas, there is only 1 veda Vyasa.

      One way to prove the historicity of Tolkappiyam and Mahabaratham is by studying the celestial positions in them.

      I would request you to read the above mentioned book. It deals with the Historicity of Sanskrit IN DETAIL. as you know it would be impossible for me to cover the whole topic exhaustively.

      And are you aware of any studies on Tolkappiyam, based on celestial positions?

    2. I dont mean to hurt your religious sentiments, I am a Hindu myself. But unfortunately, none of the things you have claimed in your original blog and in your above comment have any scientific credibility. I am also aware of the "Institute of Scientific research on Vedas". However, the paper they published is not peer reviewed and does not have any science behind it. The dates are based on non-scientific speculation and the main argument they make is the dating based on planetary configuration. "planetary configuration" itself is not evidence for the occurance of these events since anyone can write a book at any point of time and claim that it occurred at a certain planetary configuration, but that does not make it true. It pains me to say this, but truth of the matter is there is absolutely no scientific evidence of even the occurance of Mahabharatha (trust me, I have searched for it) let alone proving its date. Once again, every argument you have made may be scripturally correct but have absolutely no scientific evidence. And no, Franklin C. Southworth was not a beleiver of Aryan invasion theory, he was an Indologist and had a high opinion on Indian culture, though I dont see why it should be relevant here. I stick to my previous argument, these claims are unscietific. If they were scientific, then you would have hard evidence...not such vague questionable evidence. Personally, (not based on science), I believe your dating of Mahabharatha is wrong. I believe it occurred a very long time before that. If this was the Kali yuga, then your dates and all knwledge of scriptures are going to be wrong anyway. And finally, I deeply request you to read Franklin's work. There is hard archaeological evidence proving contradictory of what you claim. If you dont believe me, you can consult the ASI and go see the hard evidence (stored in museums now) for yourself.
      -Karthik Bala

    3. Dear Karthik,
      Planetary positions alone does not make a strong evidence for any statement, but what about Archaeological and Geological evidences for them?
      What is the very purpose of any author of an Epic to give a wrong planetary position? and assuming that they have made up the position, how is it possible for that author to maintain the same throughout an Epic?

      In fact, The book has given sufficient evidence on Ram Sethu also. as per the Ramayana, the sea was 1 meter below the Bridge and currently it is 2 meter below sea level and surprisingly, the World oceanography report states a 9ft increase in sea level in the past 7000 yrs. So again we have a nexus. And the concept of Yugas is relative and is based on the prevailing situation and not on a fixed time frame. ie. Yugas change based on the happening on an event and not on a fixed time frame.
      Personally, I reject the puranas (very unscientific) ,Avatarism and Yuga but accept Mahabaratha and Ramayana as Historical incidents with HEAVY INTERPOLATIONS like monkeys flying and eagles talking. The problem with we people is that we start terming people as gods when they do something extraordinary and historical incidents as Mythology, because it doesn't suit the current time period.

      In fact, I have personally spoken to the Marine archaeologists in NIOT(National Institute of Ocean Technology). They said that there is too much of politics involved and the Govt. is against their findings (Obviously, the Psedo-secular Congress). In fact,the had to excavate Dwaraka and forward the findings to Europe for further study.

      I am planning to do more in depth analysis on the Dwaraka findings by interacting with NIOT. Will keep you updated

  6. I'm looking an answer from the admin for Karthik Bala's Comments.


    1. Brother,
      I have already seen many videos on kumari Kandam and there is no scientific evidence for its existence.

  8. If someone says Sansk is older than Tamil then we may have a debate on it. But if he says Tamil originated from Sansk it is just stupid. The languages sound so different; certainly Tamils believed in a different method to speak. Now trying to interpret history to prove which is older is futile. Even most CVs are false; how can the history be accurate? But you can observe the natures of people to deduce. There must be a reason that with all the hardships in Tamilnadu, it has no wealth nor power, Tamils still cling onto Tamil; none like Tamilnadu. Tamil has not been doing well for centuries now; but Tamils believe in Tamil; it is something deeper than reason; it is biology; Tamils are different; Tamil root is strong and old; probably much older than Sansk; may be as old as Egyptian.

    1. There is so much of similarity between both the languages. Can you explain why sounds like Ba, Sha, da ,sa and many more have NO unique Alphabets and yet be used in Tamil? Why were newer alphabets like Ja and Ksha were added from Sanskrit?

      If sounds like Ba, was really important in Tamil language, they would have had an alphabet instead of sharing with pa.
      Can you show the nexus here?

    2. Why have you not talked and phoenetically analysed about those Tamil sounds and large number of words that are not found in Sanskrit? Contrary to your belief, phoetically, MOST of the Tamil words cannot be traced back to Sanskrit. The very grammatical structure of both these languages are acutely different, they are not similar at all. Why have you not talked about those many permutations of phonetic stops that are not available in Sanskrit but are in Tamil? such as zh, variations of n, variations of L and short e? The words used in Tamil use only Tamil alphabets. Alphabets like Ja and Ksha were introduced recently in order to address sansritized words and nouns. Not because Tamil evolved from Sanskrit. Your arguments are simply not evidence enough. While they may prove that Tamil BORROWS words from Sanskrit (which I fully agree with) they are not going to prove Tmail originated from Sanskrit.
      -Karthik Bala

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. Sir,
      It is only sensible to compare the similarities of the words. Choosing words unique to Sanskrit and Tamil is of no use because they show no nexus between the languages.
      And on permutations,
      Sanskrit does have Permutations and combinations, even more than Tamil
      Ka &Kha
      Ga &Gha
      Pa & Pha
      Ba & Bha
      Ta & Tta
      da & Dha
      ah & aah
      e & Ee
      u & uuh
      ra & rih
      I could go on and on....

      Plus they even had Padam, where by each and every alphabet, has 3 combinations of pronunciation.
      So for one sound in Tamil say

      Pa(represents Pa and Ba)
      there are 2 Ba's and 2 Pa's , each having 3 pronunciations, totaling to 12 combinations.

      It seems that you have ZERO knowledge on Sanskrit.
      and moreover you quoting E is deplorable because it is a vowel and the specialty of majority of Indian Languages is that they have a long and a short vowel for every sound.

    5. Hi Aditya,
      I would like to mention about the phonology of Tamil language which is conceptually very different from Sanskrit at its fundamental level. Though it might appear that Tamil sounds are a subset of Sanskrit sounds, the concept of treatment of the sounds is fundamentally different in Tamil. Look at the below consonant sounds in Sanskrit and Tamil.

      Sanskrit: ka kha ga gha nga ( velar sounds) Tamil: ka nga (velar)
      cha chha ja jha nja ( palatal sounds) cha nja (palatal)
      ta tha da dha Na ( retroflex sounds) ta Na (retroflex)
      ta tha da dha na (dental sounds) ta na (dental)
      pa pha ba bha ma (bilabial sounds) pa ma (bilabial)
      ya ra la va sha(palatal) sha(retroflex) sa ha ya ra la va
      Zha La(retroflex)
      Ra(hard) na(alveolar)

      It might appear naively that except Ra(hard),Zha, na(alveolar) all other sounds are only subsets of sanskrit. Add to that the two vowel sounds e(short) and o(short) in Tamil and one might jump to the conclusion that only five sounds are unique to Tamil whereas the rest might to be subset from Sanskrit. But it is not so.
      Tamil phonology:
      Any phonic utterance in which sound flow is unobstructed is vowel. All vowels are voiced.
      Any utterance in which sound is blocked/obstructed(fully or partially) at some position of the vocal organ with some effort involved in doing so is a consonant. The uniqueness of a sound in Tamil is determined only by the place of articulation and internal effort involved with it; not on the external effort involved with it. eg. ka and ta are different because the place of articulation is different for the two sounds; ka and nga are velar but 'nga' is not only velar but also air seeps through the nose while uttering it i.e being velar-nasal is internal to the production of sound itself and hence treated as distinct phonemically. But efforts like voicing/aspiration/pitch/intonation etc are external efforts and are not phonemic in Tamil.

    6. So essentially, 'k' stands for a continous signal of sounds ranging from k----g with different levels of voicing etc. The realization of the actual sound is readily determined by the context in which the phoneme occurs.
      Word Pronunciation
      akam agam (relatively less voiced)
      ankam angam (relatively more voiced)
      akkam akkam (unvoiced)
      azhaku azhagu (less voiced)

      The spectrum of sounds from unvoiced to voiced are taken together as one sound and represented as 'k' whose realization is based on its context of occurrence. In 'akam', 'k' is preceded by a vowel 'a'(already vowels have voiced effort which propagates to k). This essentially makes it lean towards the voiced end of the spectrum. But the inclination towards voicing is more for 'k' when occurring in the context of 'ankam' because preceding 'n' is nasal and voiced consonant which is held in voiced position for half a beat(consonants without vowels are held along with their efforts for half a beat) hence angam is more voiced than the word agam(though we used g to represent the voicing in English here). This phenomenon is not restricted within the word. Even between the words such phenomenon is quite common in Tamil. Take for example the following lines from epic poem 'Silappatikaaram' (Interestingly, even in this title 't' and 'k' are relatively voiced):-

      1. 'tinkalaip potRutum tinkalaip potRutum ........... etc'
      2. 'njaayiRu potRutum njaayiRu potRutum .........etc'
      3. 'maamazhai potRutum maamazhai potRutum ....... etc'

      Here 'potRutum' is a word which means 'We praise/glorify' has the letter 'p' which can stand for any sound ranging from 'p.....b' with different degrees of voicing. In the 1st line, the word 'potRutum' is preceded by a consonant 'p' and hence unvoiced(meaning no voice effort already to propagate. One might argue that the first 'p' in the doubled consonant is preceded by a vowel here and so can be conceived to carry forward the voice but that would be stopped because the hard consonant 'p' when held for half a beat is by default unvoiced unlike 'n' which is voiced by default). i.e when 'kk' 'pp' 'tt' etc occur in Tamil they will always be unvoiced. Or in other words, Tamil deems that it would be natural for a hard consonant to lean towards voicing when occurring in the context of voiced sounds(like vowels or nasals) and unvoiced otherwise. Hence 'potRutum' in line 1 is unvoiced in the context of doubling 'pp'.

      In line 2, the same word occurs in the context of vowel 'u'(of 'njaayiRu') and hence one would typically pronounce 'potRutum' more like 'botRutum' when one chooses to pronounce the words together as in njaayiRubotRutum(relatively voiced). But if once consciously chooses to treat 'njaayiRu' and 'potRutum' as separate words and utter them separately then this voicing phenomenon will not occur. This explains the intuition of voicing in the context of voiced sounds. Same holds good for 'maamazhai potRutum' as well.

    7. This cannot be simply dismissed as a phenomenon which is occurring in Tamil because of its lack of distinction between voiced and unvoiced sounds. It is a fundamental concept in Dravidian phonetics whose parallels are found in other languages like Telugu,Malayalam etc(languages,which have the full varnamala as that Sanskrit) and this phenomenon can be traced back to Proto-Dravidian.

      eg. In Telugu(in which ta tha da dha are phonemic just like in Sanskrit) observe the following phenomenon.

      anna + tammulu -> annadammulu (ta is voiced as da)
      daya + choochutam -> dayajoochutam (ch becomes j)

      Though these are explained traditionally in Telugu as sandhi modifications, the context in which such changes occur is typically Dravidian. Casually in spoken Telugu one would say 'nen chooskontanu' as 'nenjooskontanu' because in the context of nasal 'n' ch becomes j according to Dravidian phonlogy. But Telugu has come a long way from proto-dravidian and now it has all the sounds of Sanskrit. Yet the traces are left to make sense of Dravidian phenomenon.

      A better instance of the phenomomenon is observed in Malayalam(which also has all the discrete sounds found in Sanskrit). Take a word like 'avataripikkunnu'/'thiruvanthapuram' where the hard consonant sounds are pronounced more like their voiced counterparts'avadaribikkunnu'/'thiruvanandhaburam'. In the latter word 'thiruvananthapuram' the first 'th' is pronounced as 'th' because it is preceded by nothing to propogate voicing. But the second 'th' is voiced because of the voice context of preceding vowel 'a'. Note that 'kk' is unvoiced as expected.

      This and many other minor non-literary Dravidian languages show a similar phenomenon which is typical for all Dravidian languages. So from this view of phonetics,it can be stated that Tamil treats sounds as continuous spectrum whereas Sanskrit treats them as discrete samples of the continuous spectrum of hard consonants. This fundamental difference in approach is what is reflected in Tamil script, its morphology, its limits on the kind of sounds that can occur together etc. All other sounds like s,sh,h,j,ksh are alien to Tamil before the introduction of Sanskrit and those were assimilated by undergoing many phonological changes in old Tamil. Linguistically it is conclusive that these are two different traditions with rich tradition of their own and it would be unwise to say that such a distinct language family is derived from Sanskrit. What is clear is that influence of Sanskrit has already started occurring in old Tamil by the time Tolkappiam was even written. But that in no way entails that Tamil is derived from Sanskrit. It would amount to ignoring all the body of vast linguistic evidences available to prove otherwise.

  9. Yes true TAMIL is enhanced form of SANKRIT

    1. There was no "aryan race" sir , there was no "aryan invasion" of india , this fiction was created to divide india. It is a matter of pride for whole india that such great history and culture of tamil exists in india. Dont divide people please do not consider us separate from you because i do not consider my self separate from you.

  10. Finally I find one Tamil speaker(No Offense) who has researched thoroughly, scientifically and tried to put facts as facts about the biggest linguistic debate in this country. I am proud of you Mr Aditya. As a Bharatiya, we must embrace the oldest languages of our country with great content and expression while also appreciate the diversity of cultures around. A mentality of a community not having to embrace or at least know diverse cultures without of course forgetting its own is either a terrible weakness or a big victim of regional and communal fanaticism. The very fact of you mentioning you have been in touch with Sanskrit since 15 long years is very pleasing to hear, that you have a great open mindedness and a zeal to learn more about cultures and languages, while not forgetting your own, Sanskrit is the first step. I am a Kannadiga, and speak a language which initially originated from proto-tamil-kannada Dravidian family as Tamil is said to have did and I have been in touch with sanskrit since 10 Years as well. Although Kannada has been influenced by Sanskrit with an appreciable factor later stages, it has also retained the essence of a Dravidian Language and an extant and rich literature since 1500+ years and epigraphs and Plays dating back to 2300 Years probably next to Tamil's epigraphical events itself. The vocabulary and grammar caters both dravidian and sanskrit words, which is a base I sometimes use to understand the modern Tamil language from some of my colleagues.With a knowledge of my mother tongue I can easily understand 50% of modern spoken Tamil and the context by which the sentence is spoken, purely based on my Sanskrit's vocabulary and Kannada Language's dravidian lineage linking them to a certain Tamil context when heard. I certainly see a lot of Sanskrit influences in modern spoken Tamil, while its not fitting for me to date the influences back to ancient era, since I only know about the ancient Tamil literatures through Internet sources. But this is a great analysis. Keep up the open-mindedness :-)

    1. Researched thoroughly scientifically and put facts?? Seriously Mr. Ramesh??

  11. Hello friend,

    Your work looks very neat and scientific. But still reasearch needs to be done. Why Tholkappiyam is known as "Thol" "Kappiyam". it was very ancient for the period of 500 B.C. So there was tamil present already.

    Also many tamil works were destroyed in a natural calamity and they got ruined under sea.

    More over tamil has fewer letters than sanskrit and only the very essentials.
    like (1,0) and (0,1) in a x-y plane. They can span all the other points in plane. So sanskrit script has inspiration from olden tamil script.

    Thus sanskrit must only be a refinement of tamil and what proofs we see today are very less to derive conclusions.

    1. You are not able to get the nexus between the Alphabets and their usage in a literature. It is a well known fact that Tamil script shares the same alphabet for the sound Ga and Ka. So, if Agattiyam was indeed classical and first work in Tamil language, it should have been called as Akattiyam ( A - katti - tiyam) and not Agattiyam (A -gatti - Yam) . Isn't it surprising that the sound featuring in the very name of the oldest tamil work does not have a unique alphabet on it's own?
      Can you please explain the reason why Tamil does't have unique alphabets for the every sound it uses?
      If you don't the conclusion is pretty obvious, that the sounds have been borrowed/copied from some other language. The latest additions are "Ja" and "Ksha"

    2. mr.aditya your words shows you are a lover of sanskrit but for that you dont have to give foolish interpretation of tamil language. in tamil agam means inside(soul) and puram means outside(material). the name agathyar is interpreted as agathu+iyar that means one who belongs to the soul. and agathyam when you interpret in tamil it is agathu+iyam. the literature about the soul. iyam in tamil means literature. all your interpretation about tamil is like a blind explaining about an elephant without having knowledge about it. please dont kill tamil. it is the most beautiful language in the world. if you again interpret tamil words with your sanskrit knowledge iam sure you are the dumpest person in the world.

  12. Mr. adithya i read your words and i could say it is a very poor interpretation. it means you dont have knowledge about tamil and you are looking for clues to say sanskrit is older. I tell you the meaning of all your words in tamil. First it is agathyar not agasthyar. agam means inside(soul) iyar means belongs in ancient tamil. so agathyar means the he is the soul. and about the tamil sangam sangam is sangu that means one that covers everything. there are lo of words relating to sangam in ancient tamil. sangamam means get together. every where sangam is used in tamil. so dont interpret sangam as sanskrit. then tholkaappiyam. thol means old , kappu means gaurd , iyam means literature in ancient tamil. so tholkaappiyam means old gaurded literature in tamil. please elloborate your kaavya and what it means. now i come to the tamil sangam. i is not 300 bc. there are three tamil sangam conducted in tamil region. agathyar belong to first tamil sangam which took 4440 years to complete. after the great diluge destroyed tamil land the second sangam started and it took 3750 years to complete. again tamil land was destroyed by diluge. then the third sangam started on 1500 bc and it ended at 350 ad. As i see you as a half baked knowledge person i give you proofs from your vedas itself. please read the puranas. in matsya purana the manu who is a tamil king escaped from the flood warned by vishnu in a fish form. he then started his new life in malaya mountain(kerala). and also read bhavisya purana which says the veda nows available in sanskrit is not the original veda. the original veda was written in manu's language and it was destroyed in the flood, then it was re written by the manu himself and that was also destroyed by evil people. and after sanskrit was established the vedas were rewritten in sanskrit. so please refer you vedas and read them correctly before argueing against the mother of all language tamizh

    1. Aga+ asthi = Aga(s)thi .There is a Sandhi taking place. This is a grammatical rule in Sanskrit, but the original words remain the same. And as far as your interpretation on Tolkappiyam, it makes no sense. i.e Old guard literature makes no sense in the context of the literary work. But Tolkappiyar's Kavyiam (Tolkappiyar's poem) is apt.
      And I am well aware of the 3 sangam ages, but there are no single evidence, be it archaeological ,geological or even archaeo-astronomical. It is just another story like in the Puranas which says stories which are many manvantaras and Yugas before.

      And about Puranas, they are not reliable sources for history because Linga purana praises Shiva as the supreme god and Vishnu purana says the otherwise. The puranas contradict among themselves. The bhavishya Purana was written until 19th century and even goes on to mention the Islamic and British Conquest of India. So it is not the true representative of historical incidents 2000 years before.

      So a new theory, manu's language...pretty interesting.
      The fact is you have no knowledge on The vedas or Puranas, neither do you show any signs of sanskrit knowledge, which makes you a poor person to give interpretations in this topic.

      And please don't bring in your Christian Mythology here. And when did this so called flood come?

      And you poor knowledge on this topic is proved by the very fact you go on to say "i give you proofs from your vedas itself. please read the puranas....."
      Even an amateur in this topic knows that Puranas and Vedas are not same.
      Please post a better comment after through research

    2. sir , Tholkappiyam is the name given by us and not by the author himself...since that is the oldest ever literature we have unearthed...we have given the name "Thol - Thonmai-pazhaya" that is all....other wise arguments given above are simply rubbish...

    3. There is a word in northern colloquial Malayalam THONDAN(old man),THONDI(old woman) similar to Tamil thonmai

  13. dear, just argueing doesnt mean anything. when you kept vedas as a proof i gave you proof from vedas. the interpretation of tholkaapiyam by you shows how poor you tamil knowledge is. tholkaapiyar is not the real name of the author. his name is thrunathoomaakini. as he saved and possesed all the old literature the name tholkaapiyar was given to him. you dint explain the word kavvya with its meaning.poor interpretation. nobody is going to throw mountains here. agathyar never threw any mountain. dont give sanskrit paint to tamil names. if your sanskrit is much older than tamil there must be some scripts in the country written in sanskrit. but 65% of the scripts found in india are tamil scripts. only after ashoka's rule sanskrit was written after 350 bc. if you say puranas are just stories what about ramayana. it gives the geneology of rama which starts from manu. bhagavat gita gives geneology of krishna which starts from manu. and regarding flood how do you think the dwaraka was submerged under water. now dwaraka is found under water and researchers are giving photo proofs. do you think under water living beings built that city. and poompuhar in the south. who do you thing built that city. i have never written anything about christianity here. this shows how inferior you are that makes you to escape from reality. sanskrit is a dump language . no body know sanskrit other than the poosaaris.

    dont speak bullshit in a forum where people come to gain knowledge. learn history. learn tamil and love tamil. tamil is the gods language given by siva to agathyar. it is in tamil siddha vedas. the origin of agathyar is given in tamil siddha vedas.
    we are not speaking with out proof we giving proofs from our literature. if you dont know about our literatures its not our fault.

    1. 1)You have not given any proof from the vedas.

      2)Tolkappiyar is the name of he person who authored Tolkappiyam. The name you gave can also be one of his names, just like Chanakya was called Kautalya .

      3)Your stupidity is proved by the very fact that you "literally interpret" every word. FYI as per the Bible, Jacob is the son of Isaac. Does this mean you are actual that Jacob? Pretty stupid interpretation isn't it? Just showing how stupid your's is.

      Vallabhai Patel was called the iron man of India. Does this mean that he was made of Iron? It is his quality which was gave him the tag "Iron Man Of India".

      Sanskrit was primarily a spoken language than of a written language. But that does't deny the facts that there are Sanskrit scripts, but very negligible when compared to other languages.
      In fact, Devanagari is a recent Script . Previously Grantham was used to write sanskrit, even prior to that the Brahmi and we exactly do not what preceded that. (maybe the indus, who knows? -Just speculating)

      Ramayana is indeed a History, but with too much of interpolation. In fact, many parts of Ramayana have been proved by sanskrit scholars as later day interpolations. But the skeleton of story remains the same. Mark my word " the Ramayana/ Mahabharata available today are interpolated " and this has even been proven.

      You have used poor words to express yourself . Mamallapuram, Dwaraka poompuhar submerged because of rising sea level (caused due to tsunamis and warming of earth). That doesn't make it a flood. The definition of flood is very different from rising sea level. I thought that you were introducing biblical stories to support your statement, since you used the word "flood".

      God's language? So you have seen god? Spoken to him?

      Proofs from puranas say that Sanskrit is a billion years old. So that predates Tamil. Will you agree to this. What makes you think that I would accept your so called evidences from literature, WHEN SCIENCE DOESN'T BACK IT.

      The line of difference between you and me is that I accept anything and everything which has Scientific evidence,even if it goes against my ideas/liking and you reject anything and everything that goes against your views. You call this Prejudice

  14. hindu veda is a collection of many books, and it was compiled in 350 bc only. agathyar samgithai written by agathyar is there in vedas. and mandiram verse 1-191 is composed by agathyar. how did all the tamil poets manthiram came into vedas. please give notes on this. this clearly shows there is a pre vedic literature may be more than one prior to the vedas.
    i hope now you have understood how tholkaapiyam name came to.even a child would understand it through my explanation.
    dont tease others by your words.this is not the place to tease others. if you have proof for what you say please tell us.

    i have already explained you about the names agathyar and tholkaapiyar and what does that mean in tamil and how that names came. now i tell you what is aryan and dravidian is . in early days when greeks and romans traded with pandya kingdom they looked strange to tamilians. their colour is white and hair colour is defferent and their eyes were brown. so tamilians called them ariyar that means stranger in tamil. and the strangers called tamils as tamilar. these are in tamil literatures . that is how aryan and dravidian names came . how do you conclude siva as a sanskrit word. even before hinduism came to tamil land jainism was the first religion to reach tamils. before the arrival of jainism tamils were worshipping siva, amman, and velan. as all the old literatures were stolen by your brahmins all tamil vedas were re written in sanskrit and given sanskrit names.

    i dont believe you said you are a tamilian. even a fool tamilian will understand the words in tamil.

    according to the literatures that we saved after the flood the tamil sangam dates are given in that literatures along with the names of the poets. it says the first tamil sangam was started by king kaaisina vazhuthi a pandyan king. and the first sangam lasted for 4440 years in the capital city then madurai in kumari kandam. after the tsunami that destroyed the tamil land the second tamil sangam was started in the another capital city called kavatapuram which lasted for 3850 years. (% in ramayana when rama went to lanka to attack ravana in that verses the city kavata is mentioned.) so the period of second tamil sangam was the period of ramayana. it is proved through your ramayanm literature. you cant deny that because by gods grace it is mentioned in ramayanam. and the next tsunami destroyed the kavatapuram and the third tamil sangam was started in madurai at 1500 bc and ended at 350 ad.
    who told you siddha medicine is copied from ayurveda. why do you give idiotic statements like that. we have siddha palm leaf scripts till now. the original scripts are available.

    1. Sir! you need some real education on this topic.
      First, there is no scripture called "Hindu Veda" . In fact the word hindu is a not even an Indian word, it is a Persian word .
      The word "Mandiram" itself is a Sanskrit word.
      You claim Vedas to be 350 Bc. I am shocked by your ignorance. You are making a fool of yourself. There are plenty of evidences which date the Vedas around 3000 BC.
      What is 1-191 ?

      What Veda, book ,Hymn and mantra? Just plainly giving "1-191" does no good. There are thousands and thousands of mantras in the Veda and it is impossible to trace it if you are not providing the exact bibliography .
      Not Again!
      There are enough of Genetic, archaeological, geological ,archaeo-astronomical and linguistic evidences that rubbish the AIT.
      All I can say is you are a tamil fanatic, who gives no scientific facts and give stories of flood and tsunami . I know people who have mastered the Ayurveda and siddha medicine also. They come from Kerala and they are very knowledgeable, way more than you and me in this topic . So please stop your nonsense.
      The fact is that You have no knowledge Sanskrit to comment on the relationship with Tamil.
      Second, is you give no solid evidences, which shows the credibility of your comments
      And you said "according to the literatures that we saved after the flood the tamil sangam dates are given in that literatures along with the names of the poets."
      Sir, if you take that literature as your point of argument, the Puranas and ithihasa claims Sanskrit to be Billions of years old.
      So, please stop this baseless claim, because I too can make claims like that.
      Started in Madurai? in 1500 Bc? any archaeological evidences?
      The fact is that the oldest "Civilized" settlement to be discovered is the Koodumanal finds that doesn't go beyond 300 BCe . If you make claims with out any proofs, I can show you actual proofs From the Marine Archaeological excavations from Dwaraka, which sunk some where between 2000 Bce-1500 Bce. Go read the reports of NIOT (national institute of Ocean technology ) Which will Show the Antiquity of Sanskrit .
      And if you are making any more comments, please give sufficient Scientific evidences, otherwise your point is considered as useless.

      I am indeed a Tamilian. It is not necessary to Tamilan to always support Tamil. I am an Indian first. I have no second thoughts on speaking the truth. I do not have any Prejudice against any language.

    2. veda 1-191 means 1st chapter 191 verse. why you are so stupid dont even have the basic understanding skills. siddha medicine is tamil medicine gave by agathyar. iam saying about what is said in vedas.look at your comments is there any meaningful words.rig veda has tamil origin words lot and lot of words. poosha- poosei poo(flower)+sei(offer). kaavvya- kaapiyam kaappu(protect)+iyam(literature), mayura-mayil mayai(fascination)+il(house or pack), pusthaka - pothagam pothi(stuff)+agam(mind).marutvan - muruthuvan marunthu(medicine)+avan(him). lot and lot of words of tamil.
      if you take off sya,kya,tya,st,mya,vya and all that unwanted fascinating letters from sanskrit it is pure tamil
      who said manthiram is sanskrit word please give meaning otherwise dont claim any words manthiram - mana(mind)+thiram(talent,strength) it is pure tamil word. next time please give meaning of the words you claim as sanskrit words .
      we have archeological evidence of madurai sangam, why not. we have the list of kings who ruled on those days in history as well as literatures and also their works as government. we have submitted our poompuhar scripts to indian archeology in 2001 but you religous devils are not giving certificates. all poombuhar scripts are carbon dated 6000bc.
      you paarpana poosariis were just tribes of kashmir. you had now native land in india. please give me one state or province in india which has sanskrit as its mother tongue.only ashoka learnt sanskrit its not his mother tongue. if ashoka were not ruling india you and your devil ideas would have been dead long before.
      who carbon dated your sanskrit veda to 3000 bc . vedas were compiled only at 350 bc. dont give false statement. kerala was chera dynasty one of the three great tamil dynasty of the world. as agathyar settled in malaya mountain he gave all his siddha medicine and martial arts to the tamil munivars there . i know about dwaraka it is the true city of lord krishna. no one is going to deny them but you devils cant claim lord krishna as you gene because his geneology is in mahabharatham it starts with the tamil king manu.there is no evidence of sanskrit in dwaraka as of now. you bjp fools modified a bull script in indus valley and showed it to the researchers and they clarified it as bull and cut your nose. look at your posts you know only sanskrit. and you are just making noise and raising voice without any proof. you are not a tamilan. a tamilan will not giveup his mother for the sake of religion. you are definitely the kashmiri tribe. who has nothing to do with india.

      i can give you all proof to show the whole india belongs to tamils. take in case of tradition of india. what is the traditional dress of india veti and saree. which is the old old tradition of tamils. this is in the records of all countries who traded with india and pandyan kingdom in early days.
      you first give me the native of brahmins. origin and race of their language sanskrit. which race does sanskrit belongs to. sanskrit is not even an indian indigenous language group.
      first you were giving proofs from puranas. and when i gave proof from that same puranas you said you dont trust in puranas they are just stories. and now you are again speaking about puranas and ithihasas.
      i gave proof of kavatapuram from ramayanam only. you are not speaking about that. i asked you the meaning of kavvya. you are not able to give then why do you post and say sanskrit is older. give proof. give meaning to all sanskrit words.
      aathi is pure tamil word aa(invisible)+thi(state). andha- andham andha(evening,start of darkness) am( has itself inside) andam andam anu(proton+neutron+electron)+am(has itself inside), theva thevan the(sweat) + avan(him) rudhratcha kuruthithratchai kurithi(blood)+ thratchai(grape), all words in rig veda are loan words from tamil. if you want to deny that please give me meaning for those words in sanskrit.

    3. It is you who is stupid because of your copy paste stuff. The Vedic references are given first by Quoting the Veda (Rig, Yajur, Sama or Atharva) then by the Book No, then by the Hymn and then by the mantra. So there are four levels involved and you are giving only two. Now do you expect me to apply permutations and combinations to find the source?

      Your comments are the most ill researched comments in this entire blog.

      You said that the Poompuhar is carbon dated to 6000 BCe? By whom was it carbon dated? When? who funded the research? Can you please give any links for that research?
      If the answer for the above questions is negative, chuck it. I too can claim a 100 so called scientific studies and give no authentic links to it.

      Dude you keep saying that Vedas loaned words from Tamil and all, then Why IS THERE NO ONE CIVILIZED SETTLEMENT DISCOVERED IN TAMIL NADU WHICH IS DATED PRIOR TO 1000BC ?

      You are a brainwashed fellow who falls prey to the stupid claims made by the DK activists. You could't prove Kumari Kandam in the first place. You are desperate to show the supremacy of Tamil with NO credible facts.

      First, give me any scientific study by the ASI or any other scientific institution before posting comments.
      Ignorance cannot be tolerated , so does stupidity and fanaticism .

      The fact is you have NO KNOWLEDGE to talk about this Nexus because you have no knowledge on Sanskrit. I am not a teacher to teach you the basics of sanskrit.

      How can you talk about the etymology of sanskrit words if you don't even know Sanskrit.

      This is the same error all the Pro-Tamils do, they don't have the knowledge on other fields like Archaeology, geology ,linguistics, Sanskrit.... to comment on the Historicity of Tamil or it's relationship with Sanskrit . Agreed that they are well versed in Tamil, but they should stick to that and not come in the big arena and make a fool of themselves.

      Please post your comments with evidences, or else it would be treated as spam.


    4. Jacob: Amazed with the explanation!

    5. Jacod, you are amazing. Your statement is marvelous and there are many proofs about kumari kandam in tamil archaeology. R. Mathivanan, The Chief Editor of the Tamil Etymological Dictionary Project of the Government of Tamilnadu, in 1991 claimed to have deciphered the Indus script as Tamil . He clearly mentioned the timeline of Kumari kandam. Need strong knowledge of both language before start discussion or atleast has to start consider about it. But somebody refuse to accept because their mind is fixed. We are indians, if one of our language is proven as origin then we have to feel happy about it. Here we need to make discussion to find out the truth rather than supporting particular one. Moreover here the discussion about beautiful languages and our culture including gods. So better to use decent words as possible. Talk as if you are discussing with your friend rather than some stranger. Interesting topic, good luck

    6. Good work Jacob,

      Here is the proof of people lived in stone age period from tamil nadu.

  15. This is what Google/Wikipedia says about Tholkaapiyum,
    The name Tolkāppiyam derived from the combination of the two words Tonmai and kāppiyam. Tonmai means ancientness and Kappiam means literature.
    Derivation of Tolkāppiyam from root words as per the rules defined in Nannūl verse 136.[4]
    ஈறு போதல் இடையுகரம் இய்யாதல்
    ஆதி நீடல் அடியகரம் ஐயாதல்
    தன்னொற் றிரட்டல் முன்னின்ற மெய்திரிதல்
    இனமிகல் இனையவும் பண்பிற் கியல்பே
    நன்னூல் - 136
    தொன்மை + காப்பியம்
    "ஈறு போதல்" என்னும் விதிப்படி
    தொன்மை + காப்பியம்
    தொன் + காப்பியம்
    "முன்னின்ற மெய்திரிதல்" என்னும் விதிப்படி
    தொன்ல் + காப்பியம்
    தொல் + காப்பியம்

    Last one goes away, Middle "U" becomes "E"
    First one elongates, Bottom "A" becomes "AI"
    Similar ones doubles, Previous consonant changes
    Same clan increases, joins, all these are characteristics
    Nannul - 136
    Tonmai + Kappiam

    As per rule "Last one goes"
    Tonmai + Kappiam
    Ton + Kappiam As per rule "previous consonant changes"
    Tonl + kappiam
    Tol + kappiam

    1. Kappiyam is derived from the sanskrit word Kavyam. The word kavyam in sanskrit can be traced to the Rig Veda, which easily predates the Sangam era by a minimum of 2000 yrs.

      My argument is based on the word Kappiyam and not the first part "tol"

    2. without giving meaning of kavvya dont bluff

    3. The meaning of Kavyam in sanskrit is "Poem" .They are used multiple times in The vedas and to make it easier for your tiny brain to process this, go google "Pancha Maha Kavyam"

    4. A lot of arguments about Sanskrit having borrowed words from Tamil involve splitting apart Tamil words at random places and appropriating it to Sanskrit without applying any knowledge of Sanskrit grammar. The words of any two languages can be related through mischievous means like these.

      Through root analysis we can find that kAvya comes from root kav (note the short a vowel), meaning to praise / venerate, compose (a poem). Input "kav" here to check for yourself:

      By applying grammar, we get kAvya, and then borrowed into Tamil as kAppiyam or even kAviyam.

      Also it's very funny to hear some claiming, for example, manthiram is a tamil word man + thiram. Firstly "man" is Sanskrit, and second "thra" is a well known suffix to mean "the way or means of doing something". manthra thus loosely translates into "instrument of thought".
      Likewise, -tva (-thuvam), -may (-mayam) are all Sanskrit suffixes.

      I note interestingly that to translate "satyameva jayate", this "Pure Tamil" kazhagam had employed "vAymayE vellum" without realising that the "may" is probably a Sanskritic suffix! :)

    5. It is true that numerous words are exchanged between tamil and sanskrit.....the exchange is mutual...some of the words go to sanksrit from tamil....and again comes back to tamil with a different meaning...the exchange of words is mutual....both the languages influenced each other....

  16. Oh my god I am having such a good time. I enjoyed this thoroughly verified high quality research paper as much as I enjoy
    There is one more thing though.
    Now please go ahead and discredit them your honor.

    1. I wasn't able to access your first link, but was able to read the second page. For all your stories on Indus being Tamil, can you give me one place in Tamil literature where it is mentioned that they inhabited the Indus-Saraswathi?
      In fact, your proof goes in vain because the Indus Script HAS NOT BEEN deciphered yet. In fact, I can give you another webpage to counter yours and actually it is more convincing than yours

      So until and unless there conclusive evidence, everything is speculation.

      Any study on the deciphering the Indus script is pure rubbish, be it claiming that it was Sanskrit or Tamil. But the Fact remains that the vedas have mentioned the Indus and Saraswathi multiple times and another shocking, but true fact is that Tamil literature NEVER mentions that Tamils were driven away from Indus or that Tamils had inhabited the north.

      Case Dismissed

  17. tamil is a language where every word denotes its action if you split the words. this is the beauty of tamil. thats why unlike other indian languages still now tamil cannot be destroyed by the brahmins. how far you will go mr.aditya you have not given any proof and you have not given the meaning of the sanskrit words that are having tamil origin. you cant give proof or meaning. because sanskrit is a man made language. its origin is other languages. so if you split the words it is say oh shit. ainthiram the great mayan litrerature tells about the greatness of tamil. the script is in olai suvadi(palm leaf) you cant destroy it . after the kali yuga god will destroy all brahmins who propagated religion in his tamil land. after this kali yuga according to vedam there will be no religion as it was in tamil land before the brahmins came. every one will worship sivan alone. no other stupid names like vishnu pasu will be there. tamil was given by sivan to agathyar. went he was sent from kailasam to tamil land .

    1. yous said "his is the beauty of tamil"
      That is the beauty of Sanskrit and in fact all Indian languages too.
      Let me educate you, Sanskrit is so beautiful that you can convey what you say in a sentence in a language in few words. This makes it complex for the readers, but also makes it fantastic for poems.

      Why are you bringing brahamins here. I Brahamins really wanted to destroy tamil, we wouldn't have Kapila in the sangam period or Subramanya Bharati in the modern period.

      You don't know the real meaning of a Brahamin. A person who wears a white thread doesn't become a Brahamin .
      Brahmins are always referred to as one who looks inward (Anthanan or Paarppaan), one who always think of Brahman (Brahmanan). They are called one who do six jobs –Aru Thozilor- (In Sanskrit Shad Karma sukrutha:) because they do the following six kind of jobs,1.Learning,2.Teaching,3.Performing fire ceremonies for others 4.Doing fire ceremonies for themselves,5. Accepting Gifts and 6.Donating gifts.

      They are attributed with six virtues 1.One who seeks Brahman,2.One who takes two Births/Dwija,3.One who worships three forms of Agni/fire 4.One who practices four Vedas,5. One who controls all the five senses and 6. One who does six kinds of Jobs(as mentioned above).

      Anyone who does't do the above things are not Brahamins.

      Now Kali Yuga? Kali Yuga was given in the Puranas first and as per Kali Yuga, Vishnu will take avataram as kalki and destroy EVIL (no matter who does it, be it you or me).
      But you are the person who said you will worship Shiva alone and now you believe in Yuga.
      This is evident to prove your state of mind, confused,prejudice and plain stupid.

      It is not as "per vedam" ,but as per "Srimad Bhagawadam" -both are different , again shows your ignorance.

      Aham Brahma Asmi
      Tat Tvam Asi


  18. still you are just making statements not giving any proof are meaning. i dint ask you about brahmin. why did you take this much effort to explain brahmin. it is very pathatic to read your words. it is like a drunken person speaking. if a language has to be indigenous and born from the very begining without any external influence it has to be corelated with the action the word is speaking about. i asked you about the kings who had sanskrit as their mother tongue, i asked you to give meaning for the words you claim that are sanskrit words. i gave you poompuhar research , adichanallur research and aintiram by mamuni mayan. you are not speaking any thing fruitfull about them. you are just raising your voice. speak sensibily. speak about the subject.

    vaazhga tamil

    1. aditya! u better stop defending and read the comments with real sense. I started reading this with no prejudice. But on a detailed reading about the post and comments, it gives me a clear idea of what is what and fact is fact. Just denying and arguing will not give u any credits rather will put you down.

    2. Sir,
      Your stupidity has been exposed completely when you went on to say that

      "after this kali yuga according to vedam there will be no religion as it was in tamil land before the brahmins came. every one will worship sivan alone. no other stupid names like vishnu pasu will be there."

      The whole concept of Kali Yuga , is not vedic, but Puranic and is derived from the Bhagawata Purana(Srimad Bhagawadam) which praises Vishnu. It is a Vaishnava text. You believe in a Vaishnava concept, but say "vishnu is stupid", which makes you all the more stupid.This is the height of Hypocrisy
      Being a Shaivite, you should know the fact that Yugas ave no place in Shaivasm. This shows you are ignorant and confused.

    3. Mr. Anand,
      I have read the complete comments of Jacob.
      He is making unacceptable mistakes by giving poor bibliography and has not given EVEN ONE LINK to substantiate any of his claims. I just want one point clarified. Can you please give me the oldest record of Tamil, which has been proved Scientifically (using archaeology,geology,....... any field of science) to show the antiquity of tamil? All people who support tamil, seems to give points from within the literature itself.
      My demands are simple, please give me science behind every claim.

      P.S- I don't want any credit.

    4. please read aintiram written by maamuni mayan. you can read any author both sanskrit and english. then give me details. and mr. peace i am not here to hurt anybody. but when you hurt our feelings we have to response. this is my response dont take it to heart.

    5. Mr. Jacob,
      You don't seem to get my point. It is not about reading that book or not. It is about the credibility of the claims made in any book, be it Tamil or Sanskrit. If Science does not back the claim of the book, that point is rejected.
      I haven't read the Aintiram because I am not a master in Tamil to understand it, but I have done extensive analysis of that school of thought.
      Since I have the knowledge of Both Sanskrit and Tamil, I am able to get more information.
      If you read Panini's Ashtadhyayi (Considered as the Greatest Grammatical achievement of All times in any language- So much that it is perfect for Computer Programming ) It mentions Aindara (Aintiram) as one of the School of sanskrit Grammar.
      All I require is not quotes from historical books, I need modern scientific evidences to support them. This would be an endless argument If I say puranas are more authentic and claim sanskrit to be Billions of years old.
      But I am not a Fanatic. I go by facts. If I was a Sanskrit Lover, as you claimed earlier, I would argue from the puranic point of view, and not scientific. So I expect the same decency from you, by the way of supporting your comments with Links to Scientific studies (not speculations or Hypothesis)
      I don't take it to the heart!
      It is a process of Education for both, but we should not give room for prejudices.

      My request is simple, Don't talk as a Tamil, Don't talk as a person who likes Sanskrit, just see the facts (not what literature says ) but use Science to support them.

      And just for the record
      Maamuni Mayan- Maha Muni Maya- three sanskrit words used in Vedas, which are dated prior to 3000Bc. If you want to know the authenticitu of my date, please read my article carefully and read the links as well.
      Thanks :-)

    6. mr.adithya aintiram is the living literature it is still preserved in tanjore tamil archeology centre. i dint ask you to read aintiram in tamil. i wanted you to read aintiram in sanskrit or english, all readers please read about aintiram. veda vyasa who has written vedas has mentioned about aintiram and that was the source literature of all the vedas.
      aintiram is written by maamuni mayan(mayasura). he was the father in law of ravana. he was the king of nagas in kumari kandam. he belongs to the asura clan. he was and is the greatest scientist of the world. he was a tamilan. and he doesnt know sanskrit. he wrote about unporul and the shape of it and this nunporul that makes the world. my explanation may be weird . please go through aintiram. aintiram ainthu(five) + thiram(skill). why you are not accepting sanskrit as the off spring of tamil. tamil is the mother of all. mayamuni mayan sent his 12 disciples all over the world to teach his science. all piramids and huge buildings of ancient world has been built according to aintiram literature of veesagaram(vaasthu). so, you cant deny the truth. because every one in the world who knows about aintiram know tamil is the source language of all language.

      so, instead of fighting learn tamil. which was once the mother tongue of your anscestors. dont dump the mother.

    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    8. Sir,
      Can you please mention the work of Veda Vyasa, where this "Aintiram" was mentioned. Just for the Fact, Veda Vyasa predates Aintiram school of Thought by at least 2500 Yrs.
      Now the whole concept of Ravana and Asura is Sanskrit? Why are you now using the credibility of sanskrit to prove your point? Does this mean you believe in Ramayana ?
      Mayasura is considered as the King of Asuras. His name Mayasura means a deceiving daemon in Sasnkrit.
      Now please stop this bullshit!

      Kumari Kandam has been disproved. This is evident to prove your plain stupid. The conversation ends here because I don't talk to Fanatics .
      Go search the internet and enrich your knowledge and don't show your ignorance here. Any more IGNORANT comments would be deleted .
      Ignorance is unaccepted.

      And in fact, after reading the crux of Aintiram, all I can say is that it has already been given in the vedas.
      First You go and learn sanskrit before claiming tamil is better or even for the mater comparing them.
      I very well Know Tamil and Sanskrit. I can read,write and speak both the labguages fluently. Moreover, I have a keen interest on History. So do your homework before making a fool of yourself.

      As I said in my article, Pro-Tamils have never even learnt Sanskrit to compare the two languages and you are the Perfect example for the readers out there!

      I you say Tamil is 30,000 yrs as per your Tamil literature, I will say Sanskrit is a billion years old,as per the Puranas.PERIOD

  19. Hi Guys, i came to know ...The meaning of Sanskrit is refined, decorated or produced in perfect is "PURIFIED"

    Can anyone comment on this?? .. if so from what it is purified?? when it was purified??..

    Am just seeking for a clarification


    1. Hi Mohan,
      The etymology of Samskritam is Samyak + Kritam Which means perfectly polished/purified and all the adjectives you have used.

      The modern Sanskrit or rather Classical Sanskrit is the purified version of the Vedic Sanskrit. I.e Sanskrit (modern) is an evolved,polished and more organised form of Sanskrit, from Vedic Sanskrit.

      This purification process was Completed by Panini.
      This is so perfect that it is most suitable Natural programming Language (as per Forbes Magazine dated 1987)

      Sanskrit is one of the first language to undergo such a huge change/transformation , around 5-4th Century BC.


  20. THE MASK OF BRAHMINS GAVE WAY In 2006 indian govt gave some palm leaf scripts(olai suvadi) to tamilnadu govt to translate the tamil script to english. Dr. sthapati is a vastu professionalist, and he was asked to translate those scripts. when he started to trnslate them he was shocked. because that script was written in 10000bc by a tamil scientist called mayan. he compared that scripts with the hindu vedas and found that the vedas are the imperfect transilation of that science script. It says how the empty space of the universe transformed itself to living matters like galaxy. It says nunporul(micro particle) was first in a inactive form of cube(veda names it brahma). It then activates itself and vibrates and gets the second stage of octogonal shape(veda names it vishnu). when this cube shape particle starts to create energy it becomes bigger in size of 8 times. as the energy was created as light the light beam takes a shape and it is the oli thoon(pillar of light).(veda names it siva). this process converts the micro particle into a matter. the process also makes sound waves in a form of ohm. the process of converting micro particle to matter is called chuzhi. and the end product is called ganna sathuram.(veda names it ganapathy). this script also has all the astrological datas which are memmorised and translated to vedas.

    1. All I can do is Laugh at your ignorance and Stupidity.
      Now what is with this "Brahamin" stuff and all? It just shows your attitude and Character. That of a typical DK activist, Hate-Brahamin, Sanskrit and Praise Tamil by lying and spreading debunked theories of Tamil being Indus or Kumari Kandam's existence. You fit the perfect sketch of a DK activist(Fanatic) as I have portrayed in my article.

      Another Fact is that Vasthu Shastra, was written in Sanskrit and has been used for ages and in fact, Vasthu Shastra has been used in Construction of all Temples and Cities(in Ancient period) in the Whole of India.

      Now, Maya itself is a Sanskrit word, which means illusion.
      Asura refers to a person who has a majority of Tamasic (negative) qualities than Sattvic (positive ) or Rajasic (neutral) qualities.
      In fact, Ravana is considered as one of the greatest worshiper of Shiva (Born to a BRAHAMIN sage), but is considered as an Asura because of his qualities, even though he had devotion.

      So here two of your points are debunked
      1) Ravana was a born to a Brahamin, but turned to be an Asura because of his Karma- I have been emphasizing this from time immemorial
      2)Even Asuras can have qualities like devotion.

      I am surprised that you quote "Mayasura" , a Character in Ramayana - a Sanskrit work to suit your agenda. Just like the DK opportunists who try to make Lemuria as Kumari Kandam and Indus Civilization as Tamil, when geology has disproved Lemuria and Science disproved Indus was Tamil. In fact, Science doesn't even mention Tamil prior to 500 BCe!


      I am having a hearty laugh at your comment. I would go on to expose your ignorance one by one, but FIRST SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE THAT AINTIRAM WAS WRITTEN IN 10,000 BCe AND ENCLOSE THE COPY OF THE REPORT/PAPERS... OF DR.Stapathi ON THIS TOPIC.

      Enjoying your ignorance!
      Keep posting and entertain me and your comments help me to remind that there are really dumb people on earth !

  21. dear peace veda vyasa has mentioned in bhagavatam 9th skandha 14 th chapter. eka ava pura vedah pranavo sarva vangmayah. it means pranava veda is the oldest and it was there from an unknown period of time. now indian govt has given the pranava veda to mr. sthapathi .the pranava veda is in taml it is written by maamuni mayan. do you want any other proof than this.

    1. Mr.Jacob
      Sorry to use the words, but I have no words to explain your stupidity. You seem to believe anything and everything what a person says, which suits your agenda.
      This reminds me of Alex Collier and his comment on Tamil. You Tamils started to believe him blindly, when few of his other claims was interacting with aliens.

      Now, back to the point.
      On Mr.Ganapathi Stapathi

      Agreed, he is one of the best architects and he is a master in Vasthu Shastra. Now let's examine his claims.
      I will give his words in Quotes .

      Dr V. Ganapati Sthapati writes

      "Mayan the architect and town planner of India and the progenitor of Vaastu Shastra lived in the southern part of the Indian subcontinent, known as Kumari Mandalam (Lumerian Continent), some ten to fifteen thousand years ago"

      He is hit in the very first line. Lemurian Continent? Kumari Kandam? I thought he was an architect, he is a geologist too?

      Jacob, I guess you are educated. will you believe everything blindly? The fact is that Lemuria has been debunked by Geologists. Geologists have proved that there existed NO CONTINENT like lemuria/Kumari Kandam .

      Now,let me knock some geology into your head.
      Following is the topography of the Indian Ocean from the National Geophysical Data Centre

      Know for yourself, the depth of the Shore of the Indian Ocean.
      Now you mean to say that a tsunami has the power to submerge a Super huge landmass and push it under water for at least 500 meters?
      How did the sea level rise suddenly, where did so much of water come from.
      I am asking questions in a very simple manner.
      Show me evidence of Kumari Kandam, then let's proceed to other things.
      In Fact a research vessel, JOIDES Resolution has discovered that last large scale Landmass submerging in the Indian ocean was about 20 million years.

      Now, Mr.Jacob, with all due regards, talk facts. Act educated. Prove the existence of Lemuria.

      I find it hard to believe that you are blindly falling for Kumari Kandam, when science has proved otherwise.

      Now prove me the existence of KK. Then I will give the SCIENTIFIC (geological ,archaeological and archaeo-astronomical evidence to show that Ramayana occurred around 5000 BCe.

      Now let's take it slowly one by one.
      My first questions prove Scientifically the existence of KK.


  22. mr. peace lgm reports are there in the net you can see that the sea level has raised to 128 meters in the last 10000 years. and please refer to the land mass of indian ocean . the lands under indian ocean is only 80 to 100 meters in particular areas, indian marine archeologist has found the city poompuhar down south sea. please refer to poompuhar excavation. the team who are researching in dwaraka are doing this research also. please dont blindly claim anything is not there if you search the researches you will easily find it in the net.
    if i argue with one who has interest in knowing new things it would be better. but you seems to know the facts and everything. you have gone through the research about kumari kandam. but for your religion sake you want people to beleive that kumari kandam doesnt exist.
    1. please see the lgm of indian ocean .
    2. please refer poompuhar excavation.

    1. Mr.Jacob
      My name is not peace!

      Okay Jacob,
      I am satisfied with your progress.
      Now can you give me Geological studies which show that
      "A continent has been submerged in the Indian Ocean a few thousands before"?

      I do agree that there are continents that are under the Indian Ocean, but they have been submerged millions and millions of years ago, way before mammals were dominant.

      Drilling by the JOIDES Resolution research vessel in the Indian Ocean discovered a sunken landmass ,Kerguelen Plateau, was submerged about 20 million years ago by rising sea levels. In fact, the samples dated wood back to 90 million years ago.

      I have spoken to NIOT scientists (I know them because My parents are Maritime Lawyers and represent NIOT in legal matters) I have asked about Kumari Kandam ,Dwaraka, Mahabalipuram and Poompuhar.
      The denied the existence of KK . They are the same people who discovered Dwaraka also.
      They said that "there is a difference between Sunken city and a continent" "Cities can go underwater because of a Huge Tsunami, but for continents to submerge, we need massive tectonic plate movements, which would take millions of years"

      What religion Sake? FYI, I am a person who criticizes every religion including Hinduism. I go by the truth. I reject the mythology in Ramayana and Mahabharata. Moreover no religious scripture even talks about KK, so it is incorrect to cite it as something which would go against my religion.

      My question is simple.
      Please give me the Scientific Papers/researches...... which prove the existence of KK . Please don't give hypothesis (like that of Discovery channel/history Channel where they say words like "may be" "would have"....)
      I want solid research papers from any Geological institution.

      For the record, KK was disproved AFTER tectonic plates were discovered and the hypothesis of Lemuria was created to Show the movement of Lemurs in Madagascar.


    2. With regards to tectonic plates - it has its own deficiencies. It is just a theory still being questioned, investigated and accepted. For example: See - for its pitfalls. Please also google on inundation maps of the ocean levels. Inundation maps is another "scientific tool" that can calculate sea levels over time (past and present). Plate tectonics have under-estimating the size of mountains.
      Tectonics does not support rising of sea or submerging of sea - but that contradicts inundation maps. Also tectonics theory has its own "fantasies" *or unproven assumptions" such as the land was once two (in north and one in south) massive land, india and Australia were part of antartica and so on. Tectonics seem to explain formation of oceans and Himalayas, plateaus. That is why it is hailed by scientists. But it also has own contradictions with voluminous sea floor mapping, seismic data observations - Also it does not fully correlate with ages of the rocks of mountains (it significantly underestimates them).
      All of these of course do not prove the existence of sunken masses - but it questions the theory that dismissed it.

      Whether it is science, philosophy or linguistics or even epigraphy - every one has their own theory. It is not that "Science" is great. There are also "idiotic ideas" in science too (Quantuam mechanics and Astro physics have enough of them). So science is also an investigational tool subject to debates and disproved over time.

      With regard to sunken land mass south of Tamil Nadu or East of it only marine exploaration can answer the question precisely. But they are expensive as well as inaccessible (though some structures have been found by National Institute of Oceanography under the sea a few kilmoeters into the sea east of poompuhar).

      With regard to comments - on astro-dating - they have also been done by a Physics Professor - Dr. B.N. Achar of Wisconsin University. Well there can be only two possibilities - (1) the astronomical events of maha bharatha if written much later than the claimed date of occurrence of events - then the level of astronomical knowledge of the civilization at the time of writing the literature was in advanced level to be able to "calculate the astronomical events of the past" - (2) they indeed occurred in the past and the oral tradition when became writing got them documented.

      With regard to "Kumari Kandam" - it appears every one is stuck with the word "kandam" and is expecting a submerged continent. Tamil literatures do not refer to "continents". They only use terms "jadak kondadhu" "naadu" etc. The first time the term "kumari kandam" appears only in Kandha Puranam as ( மெய்ந்நெறிசேர் வதுகுமரி கண்டம் ஏனை மிலேச்சரிடம் ஓரெட்டும் வியப்பி லாவே ) in Verse-47 of Andakosappadalam. However the context there is different.

      I am yet neither side - but the arguments and theories and debates should continue (in non-abusing manner). That is how "science" is (they too contain arguable theories with no absolute proof. Examples: parallel universe, matter and anti-matter, dark energy and so on. Even at the fundamental physics - normal force is purely a theoretical force "invented" to safe-guard Newton's law. And so is many other forces).

  23. i ask every north indians one question how did dwaraka submerged did any one took it and threw into the sea. why do all of you ask which flood. if plate tectonic theory is 100% correct then dwaraka should not be there. all are theories plate tectonic is not the history of the world. it explains about the plates oceanic plates and land plates. thats all. read everything carefully. dont blindly object everything like a fool. your mind is fixed by your anscestors that sanskrit is the oldest language and vedas were written in sanskrit which is a false propaganda of your anscestors. you live in our shade remember that. i told you to refer the lgm but you dont do that. then it shows you are a fool who just shout for the sake of sanskrit. all sanskrit people are fools. they cant accept the defeat. they all are inferior. they have no brain. they copy all tamil literatures and say those were sanskrit literature.

    1. I am not bothered about what you ask to north Indians. You don't seem to use common sense. There is a difference between a City (be it Dwraka, Mahabalipuram or Poompuhar) sinking and a Massive continent (Kumari Kandam) sinking. A tsunami can submerge a city and so does an earthquake destroy a city. But for a continent to completely disappear in a short span of time you need something greater than a tectonic movement. Come on! even in fiction that doesn't happen.
      I asked you to give Scientific reference for the existence of KK, but you are beating around the bush. You have NO to facts to present. These are perfect escape tactics.
      My relatives have never spoken about sanskrit to me, nor did my friends. It was my own option.
      You are the dumbest person I have ever met.
      You have no Scientific proofs (after spending many days searching in Vain).
      You are the fool.
      I know why Dwaraka, poompuhar and Mahabalipuram Submerged, from first hand source (i.e from the marine archaeologists themselves who researched in the site)

      Still, you have not given me ONE proof to show that Tamil dates beyond 400 BCe.
      Your false Ego takes you no where.

      I would indeed accept my defeat had you given SCIENTIFIC PROOFS, but the fact is you did not even try to sound scientific, but sounded like a fanatic.

      Now don't get me started about false propaganda. The kind of stuff you Christians do.
      False propaganda is Calling Surya Namaskaram as Yesu Namaskaram
      False Propaganda is Calling Vishnu Sahasranama as Yesu Sahasranamam.
      False Propaganda is keeping a statue of mary with a tribal dress
      False Propaganda is showing Jesus with a trunk like ganesha
      False propaganda is conversion of poor to Christianity by paying them money and offering them rice.

      I Shout for the sake of Truth.
      I Shout for Science.
      I Shout for proofs and evidence.
      I SHOUT WITH FACTS (read the references in my blog)

      Sanskrit people are fools? No wonder Sanskrit is the best programming language. It is not Tamil or not even Hebrew, greek or Latin.
      No wonder Noble Prize winners like Neils Bohr and schrodinger have praised the Vedas.
      No wonder Robert Oppenheimer quoted the gita after the first atomic bomb.
      No wonder sanskrit was the language which laid the basis for humanity (From mathematics, to philosophy, to Science to arts to culture)

      Sir, I can tear you Claims apart and make you go home crying and doubt your own understandings, but I don't want to hurt you.
      I am allergic to ignorant and stupid people like you.

      Satyameve Jayate

      Any more comments of yours without proofs will be deleted.

    2. Previously - Now
      kadinam - kashtam
      Varudam - Varsam
      Ari - Hari
      Vedam - Vesham

      Could you explain why this changes happened? Who did this?

  24. Hey Aditya, Atleast Jacob is giving some reference to think or read about. But seriously, your blog looks like a laughing stock if one doesn't read your defensive comments which add value to the blog a bit. I would say " You put something so vague as blog" and doing an Excellent job in defending. Nice...

  25. Siva,
    I have done extensive study of aintiram and Maya muni. There is nothing new in aintiram. It is a detailed explanation of the attributes of Brahman as given in the Vedas. Go and check for yourself if you don't trust me.
    Now where are the manuscripts of aintiram? FYI, there is no possibility of a manuscript which is 12000 yrs old (as claimed by Jacob) to survive in a tropical environment. In fact, manuscripts cannot survive beyond a couple of millenia in a tropical environment.
    Third, where is the proof for kumarikandam aka lemuria. That theory has been rubbished long ago. As you see, Jacob's statements are neither believable nor scientific.
    Please do you research on the "preservation of manuscripts" and some basic geology before commenting because that is a precondition for this discussion.

  26. Good work and fighting with Jacob is nice. after writing blog,there is big headache,all persons are arguing too much. some persons are very skeptical and unable to accept the truth and giving false claims. But, u have patiently replied without giving any abusive comments. hats off your patience.

  27. I hope you know Tamil. Kindly read books written by Maraimalai adigal and Devaneya paavaanar.

    1. I have read their books. Mr. Paavaanar's main claim was Kumari Kandam AKA Lemuria was a flourishing Ancient Tamil region. Geologists have proved that there existed no massive continent in the Indian Ocean. Science has proved Mr. Paavanaar wrong.
      So why don't you shed your prejudice and approach everything scientifically?

  28. Of the one-lakh odd inscriptions in India, about 60,000 were in Tamil Nadu. And of the 60,000 inscriptions, only about 5 per cent were in other languages such as Telugu, Kannada, Sanskrit and Marathi; the rest were in Tamil, T. Sathyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist of ASI, Southern India, said.

    1. Sir,
      I very well know about it. But script alone doesn't determine the antiquity of a language. Take the vedas for example. It was awarded as "The Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity" by UNESCO, which acknowledged the fact that the Vedas were transmitted flawlessly over generations, orally. You have to also consider the fact that North India was consistently being Invaded for Hundreds of years and History has said that many libraries have been burnt. On the contrary, Foreigners came down south only a couple of hundred years back.
      In Fact, sanskrit's script has been changed many times. Just to show the magnitude of the Invasions of North India, Somnath temple was destroyed 6 times, Kashi Vishwanath's original places was where a mosque stands now, Krishna Janma Bhoomi is adjacent to a mosque which was constructed after demolishing the original temple and Ram Janma Bhoomi was completely demolished. I've just pointed out a handful holy shrines, but there were 1000's of temples which were destroyed. Temples hold these treasured scripts and inscriptions. When we can't expect the tempels themselves to survive, how can we expect the inscriptions?
      On the other hand, how many times was Brihadeeshwar temple, meenakshi Temple or Annamalai temple invaded?
      See the relation?

    2. "Brihadeeshwar temple" and "meenakshi " are Hindu temples, they are less than 2000 - 3000 years old, i.e. new temples. But actual tamil culture is even more older where they Pray Murgan, Inthiran, Kotravai etc... At that time Muruga has not got any wife... but Bramins created story saying Muruga has two wifes... Look at deep karnataka villages, they pray Murga as subramanya and the god has no wifes, you cant see any village praying murga with wife in Karnataka... They adopted murga very long time ago, after that in tamil nadu Muruga appered with wifes. And tamil main god Indthiran become slave to other gods today...

      Tamil people gone through these kind of Invasions than any other...

    3. Do you know that Subramanya is actually Fire (Agni) in the real sense? Why would anyone believe in mythology?
      And please please for god's sake give me the oldest record of tamil, with scientific evidence backing your claim.

    4. How do you say that Subramanya is fire? because of the story that he is created from Shiva's third eye, if so you are hindu follower?....

      Evidence: I would not agree any books OR records as Evidence, as they created by human. If you look at books or records as evidence then Islam, and Christianity has same. Please look at real life tamil foot prints will be there.

      I born in tamil nadu, and living in deep Karnataka village, I have good chance to understand what is Karnataka culture. I could really see how Tamil culture is erased. So leave the Records, go out understand the people culture I am sure you will find foot prints.

      Talk to andra people about their numbering system. They have two variants one is like tamil and another is like sanskrit. in their blood whoever talks sanskrit varient is great people, who talks tamil flavor they feel low class. but Majority talks tamil varient. This proves they all were talking tamil varient, Sanskrit is injected by people who has political power. This is same way how constantine injected Christianity.

    5. Aditya, Sir, Are you kidding? Invasion of North India is one of the reasons for less incriptions(be it directly or In-directly). What would you say about the most of the Tamil sangam literature went into the sea and we still have a lot of inscriptions.
      Regarding your comment "And please please for god's sake give me the oldest record of tamil, with scientific evidence backing your claim."...We are living in a generation where we cant find a plane carrying 250+ passengers lost in the sea some 49 days backs, do you think anyone can come up with the "ACCURATE" scientific evidence of the truth that lost many years ago and back their claim.
      You say science have proved Pavanaar wrong that Lumeria never existed? Seriously, How can you say that their research is complete, and how can you come to a conclusion based on science when Science cant simply answer what is Bermuda triangle and many others? I think I too can tear your claims by posting questions in the same way of yours, but that is not the point.
      Simple Questions to you:
      May I know what makes you think all these research papers/ finding are the facts and not wrongly interpreted?
      May I know what makes you think when the south Indian temples are never/less Invaded? Why it is not possible for the the Invaders to get amused by the architechture and decided not to destroy?
      May I know what makes you think a massive tectonic plate movement is not possible and never happened?
      May I know what makes you think a KK is a continent. WHat if it is a city or a country(just for our discussion we assume is a fact) and submerged?
      What if I told you Bagavan is not God, it is Paga(la)van(Suriyan). When you use GOD, I pity your ignorance too. Because we are talking about the OLDEST language, SUN makes much sense than GOD.If your research papers uses "GOD" for the first verse of Tirukural, then I dont think we can base our claims on those papers[DOT].It is just the common Sense, I dont have to back this claim scientifically.
      Moreover, not all your so called facts are backed scientifically.I dont mean to hurt you, but you cannot hide yourself on science and seek science for everything when in-fact you are not backing in many cases.There is always a Gap between the science and the fact.(I can always come up with one example more than you can come with to disagree)

    6. @Manikandan
      First of All, I want to make my stand clear. I am the follower of Vedic Dharma. I don't believe in Hindu Mythology. But I consider Ramayana and Mahabharata as Historical incidents with a lot of interpolations. The Hindu mythology takes the vedic Dharma to the Common many with the help of stories.
      Generally, Subramanya is attributed to Agni or fire. In fact, each and every God of ours is attributed to a specific Character. For Eg. Shiva for death, Lakshmi for wealth......
      And again this is evolution of Hinduism from Vedic Dharma. Agni Worship was done in the Vedic Society and Subramanya is attributed to that. Hindu Mythology has a lot of implied and Hidden meaning and interpreting it in the direct sense would be stupid. In fact, in later times, when Agni Worship became tough, worship of Subramanya was considered equal to Agni worship (Since is the form of Agni as per the Hindu Mythology)
      There is no Denying that there are tamil foot prints in the Deccan region. But what I am trying to say that why don't you go even further and try to find the sanskrit footprints in Tamil.
      By numbering system do you mean the counting of numbers like (Ek ,dhvi, triya, chatur)/( onnu,rendu,moonu,nalu) or complete number system like Arabic and Roman? *Clarify this for me

    7. @Siva

      Yes I am serious on Invasion! Do you have any idea of how many temples and libraries were destroyed in the invasion? Temples were the treasure houses of knowledge and when they get destroyed, how can you expect the inscription to last? When we still have the Indus inscriptions (Widely Available in the dried banks of River Saraswathi) why don't we have ample number of inscriptions say 2000 yrs after the Indus civilization? If it is not because of invasion than what contributed to this?
      Lets put the facts simple. For a person to prove a point, he has to give facts. If he plays the card of probability or uncertainty , the point is deemed invalid. There is more than enough Scientific evidence to prove that Lemuria (Kumari Kandam) is a myth. It is proved beyond doubt. It seems that you have not actually read the science behind debunking KK.
      Now forget the researches, let's talk logic.
      Do you mean to say that a huge wave was able to wipe off an entire continent just like that? Where did that large volume of water come from ? I mean it is understandable if it wipes off cities but an entire continent? How is that even possible logically? And for it to get submerged deep under the sea requires enormous amount of water. That would require the increase in sea level by hundreds of meters .
      And who is paavanar? Is he a Scientist or a Literary scholar? So why don't we go by the words of all the poets and literary persons?
      And you are saying that KK is a city. and you are saying "what if" which means that you are unsure of your point. The entire Pro-KK crowd claims KK to be a continent and NOT A CITY. Just pull out the imaginary maps of the probable location of KK drawn by numerous people and all would point out to the fact that KK is a 'continent' and not a small 'land mass' .
      If science is so imperfect, why even study it? Science is a matter of improvement over time and Archaeology ,Oceanography , Geology ,Genetics and anthropology has come a long way. Until science proves anything, we can't take the words of the people. If we take what you are conveying, as per the puranas, sanskrit is millions of years old. I'd claim that science is not yet developed to find this fact. would you agree? (Considering the views of Pro-Tamils, who consider things like Homo-Dravida ,Kumari Kandam and all that stuff) we live in the age of science and we believe in it. If we start questioning it, there'd be more questions against your view as well.
      As of now, science shows Sanskrit is way, way older than Tamil and linguistic evidences shows that Tamil shares a lot of common with sanskrit. So common that it would be hard to conclude that one just borrowed from another and not the mother of another.

    8. So you think Vedic dharma is root for hindus, Yes. But what is root to vedic Dharma? It is Tamil Culture, Again dont think that Shiva is god of destruction, he was god of creation, thats why Shiva lingam is made of male and female part, but your Vedic society changed the concept.

      Shiva was just a muni lived even before subramaniyan, he is a stone age man, subramaniyan is very new muni and warrior who appeared with Spear, he is also great Martial art player. Tamil people never directly prayed agni, they always pray Suryan-Sun, which is the first of fire what human knows.

      You learned vedam and you are not able to believe many facts in that which you assuming myth of hindu. First of all any documented concept is newer, tamil culture were never documented, it is that old.

      to your response to @siva on evidence: Please dont think every can be proved by science. can science prove no civilization erased by ice ages? our science says many civilizations is wiped by ice age. So look at people culture there we have evidences. Shiva muni is still followed in all the tamil villages.

      Tamil people pray suryan
      Tamil people pray Shiva muni
      Kerla pray Ayyapan
      Tamil people pray 7 kanni mars

      All are human shaped gods. Ganesha is virtual god created by tamil, thats why is not in human shape.

      Braammaa is fake god created by veda gurus, thats why it is with human shape but with 4 heads.

      Can you link to tamil version of your veda?
      Numbering i am referring to what people using... not a documented numbering system...

  29. dont worry some years back go on. Tamils people will be prove tamil is old language Sanskrit is born on tamil

    1. Dearest Solanki, I saw your comment that Tamils will prove that Tamil is older and that Sanskrit was born of Tamil. I for one am not able to say which one is older and I have no reason to say which one is older. Their evolutions are different and parallel. Since mankind might have evolved over several millenniums, the tongues have twisted. The south Indian tongue is far far different from Sanskrit. Words might have been borrowed but formation of sentence structure is different. Believe me or not, there have been enough research which is pointing to the sentence structures formation in North Indian Languages has been influenced by Proto-Dravidian. Separately, this may sound strange: In the 60s there was a governor of Tamil Nadu, I think his name was some Shah from Gujarat started learning Tamil and then proclaimed that Sanskrit originated from Tamil (for what reason I am not sure). In general when I say Tamil, I mean Proto Dravidian. The fact is Proto Dravidian had absolutely nothing to do with Sanskrit and was with the masses before Sanskrit came around may actually have contributed to Sanskrit in ways you are incapable of knowing.

  30. Oldest Classical Language

  31. There is a pronounciation error in Tirukkural.. "Akara Mudhala Ezhuththellaam Aadhi
    Bagavan Mudhatre Ulaku" ... Here Bagavan is not the right pronounciation. It is "Pagavan" பக(ல)வன், which means SUN "சூரியன்". So from this tirukkural, SUN is the first source for every thing in this world. So your comparisions are not done well.

    1. That's the first time I am hearing of this version.
      May I know whose translation/interpretation is this?
      In the mean time, My article was based on

    2. Hi Aditya, Language is always gives many meanings... Tamil Language still lives because of its simplicity, and ability to create new words... you read more of Tamil culture rather than tamil language. How Hinduism cannt prove many the same way tamil cant proven... and not need to be proven.. after 10000 years all will understand, why still tamil lives... the language it self has ability, another language is English.... both tamil and english shares same simplicity. of course english is even more simpler... Sanskrit will be died when there is no bramins... but it child languages will stand for some time..

    3. Sir,
      I pity your ignorance if you think Sanskrit is a Brahamincal Language.
      -Ved Vysas, Composer of the Vedas (Considered as the holiest scripture in sanathana Dharma) was born to a fisherwomen. Also authored the Mahabaratha
      -Kalidasa, the greatest Sanskrit poet of all times was born to a Shepard
      -Valmiki, a thief composed the Ramayana.

      Why go so far? See the father of our Constitution, BR Ambedkar.
      Did you know that he wanted Sanskrit to be the national Language?

      And still you say that Sanskrit is a Brahaminical langauage? Do I call this ignorance or stupidity?
      To put it simple, Sanskrit is an Indian language!

      And does simpler always mean better?
      Complex things always need smart brains and that's the reason why sanskrit was restricted only to the best of the minds. It's a Mountainous task to master sanskrit.
      Quantum Physics is tougher than gravitation. Does this mean Quantum physics is useless? It just continues to be with the Scholarly Class.

      And BTW, I'm not the supporter of Hinduism. I prefer the timeless and logical philosophy it preaches. That's the reason why I prefer Sanathana Dharma over the Hindu Mythology, Hindu Mythology are just stories which have Dharmic Morals to it.

    4. Any language which stands for long time is best language. That is practical thing, of course Sanskrit is newwer language than tamil, i agree it has great features than tamil. but the main issue in sanskrit is it was not designed with simplicity. they invented super pen to work in place where there is no gravity instead pencil.

      I am not saying sanskrit language made for bramins, it is used by bramins to dominate the world.

      After 10000 years Sanskrit will not be there as it is already dying.. Tamil also may not be there even though it is simpler but it is not simpler than english.

      And you dont need to use word Stupidity because i am against Sanskrit.
      Your experience is from what you studied (Sanskrit), and my experience is as a normal man who looking at people culture.

      Like you there are few people who is living for Sanskrit... but for tamil entire state is living...

      I am not Against sanskrit.... I am against your logic of inheritance...

    5. Sir,
      I have given ample evidences to show Sanskrit is way older than Tamil. The very reason sanskrit is not with the masses is because it was a scholar's language and not the common man's. That's why you could see Pali and Prakrit (simplified form of sanskrit) co-existed with sanskrit. Pali and Prakrit was for the common man whereas sanskrit was for the scholarly class. In fact, Sanskrit was the language that united the Whole of India. Sanskrit was used to communicate between kingdoms which had different language. In other words, it was in the position of Engish as it is today.
      I don't mean to accuse you as a point is that many people knowing the above mentioned facts still consider Sanskrit as a Brahaminical language, which would make them stupid. But for a person who doesn't know the above fact and consider Sanskrit as Brahamincal, it is ignorance.
      So if you din't know the above facts before I mentioned it, it is ignorance and not stupidity.
      Hope you get my point.

      And I don't mean to oppose Tamil or praise only sanskrit. You see, solving this inheritance thingy will make things much more simpler. This would be the final stone in cremating the Aryan-Dravidian divide as proposed by the British and continued by the DK activists .

  32. தொல்காப்பியம் முதன்மை நூல் கிடையாது. குமரிக்கண்டத்தில்
    வாழ்ந்த மயன் அருளிய “ஐந்திறம் “ என்ற நூல் தொல்காப்பியத்திற்கு
    முற்பட்டது. “ ஐந்திறம் பொதிந்த தொல்காப்பியம் “ என்று தொல்காப்பியத்தில்
    உள்ளது. வடலூர் வள்ளலார் சபையில் இதனை நாம் பார்க்கலாம்.

    மேலும் - ”சமஸ் - இணை “ , ”கிருதம் - மொழி” - தமிழ் மொழியின்
    நுணுக்கங்களை அறிந்திட உருவான இணைமொழி தான் சமஸ்கிருதம் .

    1. Sir, Please read the comment section also.
      I've discussed about Aintiram with Jacob.

  33. I was a saskirit lover in my child age. But i changed my mind after I read many articles about languages and still reading it. but One thing I realised that Tamil is older than sanskirit. Mr.aditya has to grow up. You are like a sentimetal person.

    1. Please give me facts. I'd be delighted if I got some concrete scientific proofs. Till now all the facts have pointed towards Sanskrit being older.
      The very act of "Praising" Tamil and it's culture and to show it different from that of the other Indian cultures was a political stunt By DK. Look us what it has led to? They started to isolate TN more and more away from the rest of India. Agreed that you have to stand for your right, but that doesn't mean you have to twist facts.
      The point is you have read 'articles' and I've read 'research papers' and 'proofs' . Anyone can write an article. In fact, you can go and search for articles which say that we are puppets of an alien race! but where is the proof. Proofs draw the line between science and fiction and mind you till now, I have not found any ONE proof which substantiates any of the Proofs of Tamil pre-existing Sanskrit.

  34. Does Sanskrit has one letter work like our Tamizh has??. Because this is the important thing to be noticed in language development.

    1. Yes it does. For Eg. Na means not. Ma means without. There are many more. In fact, Sanskrit can be credited with the longest word to feature in any Language.It was given in Varadambika Pariṇaya Campu by Tirumalamba , which contains around 431 alphabets.
      And it is not easy to form extremely long words, if the grammar isn't perfect. The fact is Sanskrit Grammar is so perfect that it can be used for computer programming . And to attain that kind of perfection, a language needs to be really old and undergo refinements over a considerable period of time.

  35. For the blogger's kind information none of the politicians in Tamil nadu are tamil & they are just in the need of power so they support Tamils and Tamil supporters .

    1. Yes! absolutely!
      The DK movement was a political stunt by Periyar & Co.
      And this Karunanidhi just Hijacked it!
      I wonder if people like Tol Tirumavalavan , who idolized B.R.Ambedkar as a god, even read his views/opinions. Ambedkar was on the opinion that Sanskrit should be made the national language. I find it hard that these DK politicians conveniently ignore certain aspects of Ambedkar.
      The same goes with Karunanidhi as well. He regards Thirukural as great, but pays no attention to the very first verse of it, where Thiruvalluvar praises the god and this dude is an atheist !
      The whole DK is a group of uncouth, good for nothing hypocrites .

  36. As per my readings I would say, Tamil is influenced by Sanskrit, and Sanskrit also influenced by Tamil. if you believe in Hinduism, Sanskrit is Mother of all language. But understand that actual Hinduism is derived from "aaseevagam", and "aaseevagam" is still followed in Tamilnadu , but none of the tamiles knows that they are from "aaseevagam" they think they are Hindus (Innocent peoples).

    Example: do you think NIRVANA is sanskrit word? NEER means water in tamil, VANNAM means color... so NEER VANNAM means color of water (naked). this is the direct meaning, but Sanskrit always created indirect meanings for tamil words.

    Evidence: Dont think always stone writing, Temples and literatures are evidences. Please look at what we do in daily life, what we are following everyday? all the truth is with us only.

    Hinduism in Tamil: though tamiles think they are Hindus they always follow something extra customs than Hindus. examples

    7 Gods: Every tamil villages and cities has practice of seven gods. they think they are Low class Gods made for uneducated people. but understand that this seven god concept is there in many popular relegions in the world, including Christianity, Zeus etc.. (they call it as Seven angels)

    (King Tree) Arasa maram : Again every Village has One tree where all the meeting happens, that's why its called as KING TREE where king passes his message to people. Also every tree will have Ganesha Statute, and it will be near to water source.

    Bramins created stories around Tamil gods, saying SIVA is father, GANESHA and SUBRAMANI is son of SHIVA.....

    Please look at SHIVA dressings, he always look like stone age man, look at Ganesha he always wears Cloth... BOSS there is a reason for this... look at youtube for AASEEVAGAM, there is 10 hours of videos to explain this...

    Ganesha is not Real God, Brahma is not Real God: Ganesha is virtual God created by Tamiles, and Brahma is created by Bramins....

    It is very big subject, but there are videos to explain this... please visit following playlist... and watch every videos...

    If you are Tamil people (Non bramin) you will agree these videos. If you are Ethicist you will agree as well.... Understand our GODS are real, but Bramins created stories around that to make them power full...

    When you understand where Hindusim coming from, then you will understand what is Sanskrit and TAMIL.

    1. Sir,
      I know that Peravai . Did you even bother to read the comments of the videos? Please read the comments of "Adima Sund" (That's me) . I have completely exposed him and I have put numerous Challenges and rebuttals, for which the uploader is yet to reply. I've left no stone unturned. Just go and read those comments.
      And i'd be more than happy to debate you as well.
      I have not woken up one fine day and penned this blog! I took my own sweet time and made enough researches to write this one.

    2. Can you guide me to any video like that to make common man to understand about tamil is inheriting sanskrit? IS sanskrit has any living culture? but tamil has, so tamil is not just a language. it is way of living, few examples

      1) Tamil pray Navagraga in every temple, is this followed in all the places? (dont point to single temple in north india, show me a state, where majority of the temple follow Navagraga), then you will understand who has knowledge in space.

      2) Every village in tamil nadu has Ganesha, Snake statue, and they are near by water source, is there any place apart from south india?

      3) every village has importance to Arasamaram in tamil nadu, can you show this as well?

      Can you disprove aaseevagam color concept?

      Can you give perma link to your comments on the video?

    3. Sir,
      Do you have any Idea how complex was jyotisha ?
      The Vedic Indians had extensive knowledge on the Universe .So much so that the celestial positions of the ancient literature can be plotted on a planetary software accurately upto a minute .
      And FYI, the nava graha names are all sanskrit. So much that the days of the week in north India still use Soma (var) ,Mangal (Var) ,Buda (Var) ,Guru (var), Shukra( var) , Shani (Var).
      Do you need anymore conclusive evidences ?

      2) Every House in N.India has a swastika symbol. So what? It differs from region to region and there is nothing unique about it. In N.India many worship Vishnu in the Form of Ram and Krishna whereas Perumal is worshiped in the south. So finally all roads lead to the same destination.

      3)Do you know that Pepal tree is one of the holiest tree as per the Vedas? So much that the sticks of it (Called as samit) is necessary to do Yagnas (Homam) . It is called as 'ashvatta' in sanskrit . Don't forget that Buddha attained enlightenment under the pepal tree!

      In the Upanishads, the fruit of the peepal is used as an example to explain the difference between the body and the soul: the body is like the fruit which, being outside, feels and enjoys things, while the soul is like the seed, which is inside and therefore witnesses things

      The entire Ayurveda talks about the medicinal benifits of Fig (Athipazham)

      I'll just post one link (Please search for other comments)

      Read my comments

      And please don't fall for that guy. He is a fanatic and in fact a Christian in Disguise. He is a part of a master plan to divide India, so much that he simply HATES the rest of India.

    4. If Navagragam is created by Veda gurus why it is not followed like in tamil nadu, And i am not falling behind that guy, but the fact is they are not claiming that it is in the book or record.... it is from people life. However i feel navagram is created by tamils and vedam using that. and tamil not created navagragam to pray, it is created to pass the truth of space to all. but Jothidam is created based on navagragam,

      As per historical world trade routes, Roman occupied portion of egypts, and they did trade accross world, they also have trade entries, Many entries are in tamil. But at that time Roman dont know how to reach tamil (south india today), only tamil traders went there to sell pepper (from costal part of kerla).

      And i feel there is lot of difference between south and north culture, they doesnt look like started from same root... but Kanada, Malayala, tamil has lot of cultural relation (not just language).


    5. Navagraha was not "created" as such. it was something which a scientific fact which was passed on, using mythology. It is not necessary that a god should be worshipped in a particular form. In that case one could argue that ram and krishna are the real forms of vishnu and not perumal. The local beliefs and traditions vary from region to region. In fact there is very negligible number of vaishnavites in kerala and Karnakata. even among the south we have a lot of differences take the female inheritance in kerala for example.
      And this is not someting that we can conclude by some feeling or something like that. Jyotisham is as old as the vedas. And I've given a lot of evidence showing that vedas predate the existance of tamil.

      And yes you are right. It was passed on to show the truth. It is again the true vedic dharma (nature worship) and coexistence with the nature.
      There are indeed difference between north and south, but that doesn't deny the fact that both have the same culture and lineage.

    6. Aditya,
      From the questions I asked you, thanks for choosing the ones you liked.
      Per your comments and considering the volume of information this blog has, it is so Juvenile when you reiterate that the Invaders were so keen to destroy Temples of all NA states and they left the southern states or never interested in South Indian states and that is why South has a lot of Inscriptions in Tamil in India. Bullocks!!!. I know how important an invasion is to a country and its culture; I know how smart you are in your defensive comments logically by posting questions as well.
      1. What is your definition of North India?(anything above TN is north?)
      2. Per your so-called science can you prove and tell us how many Invasions happened only in North India states?(Don't come up with something written in Books)
      3.You say Sanskrit is an Indian Language and all the Inscriptions in Sanskrit in Temple is lost due to Invasion of North. How do you know that the Inscriptions were in SANKSRIT and they were destroyed by the Invaders , can you give an scientifically evidence of existence of the Sanskrit inscriptions on those temples before destroyed? (I ask you these because you ask everyone(Tamils supporters) about scientifically evidence, I would be glad to see your evidences on the aforementioned as well)
      3.If SANSKRIT is an Indian language or source for Tamil language, why less inscriptions on SANSKRIT in Tamil Nadu compared to Tamil?
      Regarding my comment about KumariKandam, YES,I assumed. Yes,I am not sure whether it is a city or not, no one is sure yet. And I agree, it cannot be that size as we see in YouTube videos; but logically speaking, it could be a continent with a size of a city and could have been submerged and lost. If you can question the Integrity of the Great Tamil Authors, I think I too can question the integrity/talent/knowledge of the scientifically researchers.
      Per your blog, the age of Agastiar is beyond one's imagination. If you can believe that, why can’t you believe something supernatural stuff happened to KK.
      Now, Let’s take Paavanar. May I know why would you suspect his integrity. Is he a fantasy writer? You not just suspecting the integrity of Paavanar, you suspect almost all the Tamil poets and Tamil literatures integrity who said/mentioned Uniquely about KK.If you can suspect the integrity of anyone, I can suspect your integrity and your research papers and findings, just saying. But I am wise enough to understand science and its limitations.
      And let’s talk about Sanskrit. Per your view Sanskrit was an Indian language once. Now I see a big hole in your understanding where I can fit in a blue whale. If Sanskrit was once an Indian language why there are even less Sanskrit inscriptions in southern states compared to Tamil inscriptions. Invaders were keen on Sanskrit inscriptions in southern states as well?
      why there are Tamil and Tamil related inscriptions in our neighboring countries?
      Why historically Chinese have huge influence on Tamil when Sanskrit was an Indian language? Even at least in books , is there any influence from china on Sanskrit compared to Tamil ?
      Why Srilanka, Indonesia(bali), Sumatra have inscriptions/some sort of evidence in Tamil when Sanskrit was once ruling India?(I can give you evidence, but you better google)
      Why the earlier trades happened in Tamil when Sanskrit is an Indian language ? e.g A 2000-years-old pot in Egypt that has Tamil letters on it. 14th Century inscription found in Galle, Sri Lanka, has inscriptions in three languages: Tamil, Chinese and Persian. why?

    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    8. Continued...
      Now the generic things about Tamil:
      Do you know how many Navagraha temples in my Native village(very remote in TN): I can show you 20 in 50 square KM. If you see overall TN, you will be stunned to see the ratio of them compared to any other states of India.If sanskrit has much knowledge about Navagraha or Navagraham originated in Sanskrit, I don’t want to waste my time here arguing with you.(Sorry).
      If you think that science can determine what is the oldest language, then it is all waste of time talking to you because:
      Ancient Tamils know the better about the science (Navagraham, the knowledge of space)
      Tanjore temple and its technique.
      Lightening deflectors in village temples in Tamil Nadu
      Have you read Siddhar science books? If not , please read their science and see how they are different from Ayurveda(converted from Tamil to sanskrit) and the effectiveness. If you say Tamil Sidhhars copied from Sanskrit and they were copy cats, I don’t have a word .
      One last thing, you look like the one who fights for the truth which is: Sanskrit is the source for Tamil by borrowing words. You give amazing Tamil interpretations by calling Jacob an Ignorant, but you don’t believe in Einthiram or any Tamils poets and their knowledge. You says Sanskrit inscriptions were lost by Invasion of North India but you don’t says why there are less Sanskrit inscription in Tamil nadu. You ask scientific evidence to everyone, but you believe Agastiar lived for 500+ years .Shall I call you a hypocrite, Aditya?
      If you don't believe or believe nothing in Einthiram/Tamil poets/Literature, considering the talent the ancient Tamils had, having proved their science is much better than ours(given the technology they had at that time), I feel pity for you and your hypocrisy towards Tamil.

    9. By North India, I mean the states of J&K, Gujarat, Uttrakhand ,Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, The Sindh , Punjab (Pakistan and parts of Afghanistan)
      1) South India Includes TN, Kerala, Karnakata, Andhra, Maharashtra and parts of Orissa. You have to understand one simple thing. Invasion of South India is a very tough task because it is a peninsula. The only way is to come through the North. The North is exposed to foreign invasions and we could see this from the time of Alexander. In fact, The South never experienced any Invasion until the Delhi Sultinates, who were Challenged by The Marathas. The South was pretty much cocooned until the British. In fact, Islamic influence in South India started in the Late Medival and Early Modern era, which is nothing when compared to what the North has faced. In fact, Kerala and TN was untouched by any kind of Invasion in the History of India, until modern times when the British came. What more do you need? That's the reason why Temples in South have stood the test of Time. You can see Padmanaba Swami and Tirupathi, the richest temples in India are from the South. But on the other hand, Kashi Vishwanath, Ram & Krishna Janma Bhoomi ,Somnath were DESTROYED ! Do you get the magnitude of the Invasion?

      2) There were numerous invasions starting from the Alexander to the British. You can read Invasions only from History books and not science!
      3) To give you some 'scientific proof' I'd refer you to the inscriptions in the Iron Pillar in Delhi, where it was written in Sanskrit. Sanskrit was almost replaced by Prakrit because Prakrit was much more simpler than Sanskrit. Prakrit is a stripped down version of Sanskrit. As I said, Sanskrit is much more complex than Prakrit and Tamil and that's why you could see most of the inscriptions were in Prakrit and Tamil, but on the other hand, all the scholarly works were done mostly in Sanskrit because it was a perfect language that could accommodate the ideas/expressions of Scholars.

    10. On doubting the integrity of Tamil Scholars.
      Sir, Let me ask you a simple question. Can you give me any evidence to Show that there has been NO interpolation in any of the Tamil Works? I mean there is no 'scientific' method of preservation the purity of any literary work. I say, even the Great Ramayana and Mahabarath was interpolated. In fact, the final parts of ramayana, where the Ramarajyam is given is completely interpolated and this fact is accepted by scholars as well. The only exception is the Vedas, which used the Pada System of Encryption, which would make it impossible for interpolation.
      Every Indian work is prone to interpolation. Every Human literature is prone to interpolation .This does not doubt the integrity of the authors, but rather the purity of their work available to us today.

      There is no place for super-natural in Science or History. Then going by your theory of super natural, we can also argue that Sanskrit is millions of years old (As per the puranas). That takes us no where.
      Paavanar was a tamil scholar and not a geologist! Let's make it simple. Would you go to a doctor for an ailment or an engineer? Each one has a specialization and Paavanar's would be tamil. Now if you Doubt the Integrity of the geologists, you would be doubting the integrity of the whole of Science. Would you do that? A man could be prone to errors, but do you question the integrity of the whole scientific community ?
      Okay, Now let me take the example of the vanara clan in Ramayana. Would you even remotely believe that monkeys had kingdom or could talk in human language ? Would Science or Logic support it? Now why not question the integrity and the belief of the Author and a million people?
      As I say again , it is interpolations which bring in these confusions.
      So if you believe that KK was existing (considering the fact that you don't doubt the integrity of the Tamil Authors) you SHOULD believe what the Sanskrit poets gave in puranas as well ! , because both come under the same umbrella until and unless there is a bias in your thinking.
      Tamil came much later than sanskrit. Tamil is much simpler than sanskrit, so it is natural for Prakrit and Tamil to replace Sanskrit as the common language. And temple was a place of public meeting and it's logical to use the widely used language.
      South East Asia was occupied by Tamil rulers (after tamil became a colloquial language) so how can Sanskrit possible be in SE Asia?
      Earliest Trade- Do you know that the Kingdoms of Ancient India (in the North) Traded with the Greek, Egypt and the Chinese way before Tamil was even established? Why not read the records of Megasthenes ? Have you heard about "Indica", the Greek work on Ancient India, written in the 5th Century BCe?

      Jyotisha is a part of Vedas. This navagraha has been in the vedas way before Tamil was established. Now let's break the etymology of "NavaGraga" . Nava means 9 in sanskrit definitely not tamil and Graha means planet or celestial body. In fact, Aditya, the first graha appears in almost all parts of the vedas. It is you who should be stunned. This is not mere coincidence !

    11. If ancient Tamils knew more about Science, why did Julius Robert Oppenheimer, father of the Atomic bomb recalled the Gita after the first Atomic explosion ? Why did Nobel Prize winner, Laureate Niels Bohr and Erwin Schrödinger praise the Vedas ? Erwin in his book Meine Weltansich wrote "“This life of yours which you are living is not merely a piece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins [wise men or priests in the Vedic tradition] express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear; tat tvam asi, this is you. Or, again, in such words as “I am in the east and the west, I am above and below, I am this entire world." ?
      I keep saying this again and again. Every Indian tradition gets it's origin from the Vedas.
      There is no denying the fact that Ayurveda, Yoga ,Meditation and many more have it's origin in the Vedas, which is also adopted by people around the world.
      Please read my comments again, I NEVER SAID that agasthiyar lived of 500+ years. I mean how wild can an interpretation go?
      Tamil has it's own greatness and I never deny it. I would say that majority of Sanskrit today survives only because of the south India. Most of the Vedas survive today only because of the south. My motive is to remove the poison what the DK activists injected into the minds of the Tamils.

  37. Regarding the invasions,
    Yes, I understand the simple thing and the magnitude about Invasions; it is tough for Invasion to happen in a peninsula (south) compared to north, but it is not IMPOSSIBLE. Despite, we are talking about the FACTS happened in the past, not whether invading a peninsula would be an easy task or a tough task. Yes, North was exposed to foreign invasions and there is no denying the fact; but that is not a sufficient or a convincing reason for the south to have more inscriptions.

    And let’s see the number of assumptions you have made on Invasions theory and why it is so juvenile.
    1. You say North was exposed to foreign invasions and the temples were destroyed and inscriptions were lost. Now, what do you mean by destroyed. Even though it is destroyed, there could be left overs and Today’s Geologists can still find. So you assume Invaders completely destroyed as if it wouldn’t exist?
    2. From your examples of temples in north were destroyed, you have assumed there were some inscriptions in those temples; and you have assumed, it is Sanskrit inscriptions; and you have assumed, they were lost/completely destroyed.
    3. You say South PRETTY MUCH cocooned. WHAT do you mean by PRETTY MUCH, we are not talking about probability like in the Discovery or National Geography? We are talking about the facts!
    4. Based on your Facts, South of-course was invaded later by the British, Islamic rise in the medieval period, but these invaders didn’t destroy the temple in South? You say that because the Temples still stand in south? Assumptions are again. But for North, almost all the invasions lead to temple destruction, your statements are contradictory by itself, aren’t they?
    5. You have assumed the Nature has nothing to do with Peninsula.
    6. You assume Sanskrit is tough (Bullocks, it may be tough for us) and that’s the reason why there are less inscriptions in Sanskrit. So juvenile and highly defensive to support your claim (Lawyer’s stuff). Because, per your stand, being an Indian language and the oldest language and being the root for everything, everyone should have spoken Sanskrit and there should have been a lot of Inscriptions in Sanskrit not Tamil all over India logically. Assumptions and Assumptions everywhere, sir! You cannot even come up with one Solid example of Sanskrit inscriptions in North rather you have provided us to a PAKRIT inscription (Never mind about the source for Pakrit).

    1. 1) The Islamic Invaders destroyed the Temples and Build Mosques over them. Ram Janma Bhoomi and Krishna Janma Bhoomi are testimony to the Fact. So until and unless we go beneath the structure (Which would mean demolishing the existing structure) it is impossible to find such inscriptions. Moreover the Bricks from ruins have historically been reused to construct other buildings. These ruins act as an uninterrupted source of Cheap Bricks. In fact, the initial railway line between Karachi and Lahore (a distance of 150 Kms) was built by using the bricks from the Indus Civilization .
      That's the reason why I have given the example of the Iron pillar which is a testimony to the fact that the language was used much earlier.

      2)My assumptions are based on the inscriptions of Sanskrit (of which only few survive) which are currently present. These include the Ashoka Pillar, Hasalapur Inscription ,etc. In fact, many Kingdoms of the North used the Brahmi Script (famous example is Hathigumpha Inscription) .
      3) Do you want me to use precise words or just convey the meaning? in that case in your first point you replaced the word Archaeologist with Geologist ! By "pretty much cocooned" I mean there was hardly any Invasion in the South, which threatened it's existence ! Tamil Nadu was NEVER invaded until the modern times, so there are many inscription that are well preserved.
      4) The Brits weren't interested in Destroying the Temples, they were colonizers ,whose intent was to exploit the economy. British did not make India their home whereas the Islamic Invaders did. Was Meenakshi Temple, Annamalai Temple , Padmanaba Swamy Temple, Brihadeeshwar temple or Tirupathi ever touched by the British except for Archaeological studies? The Brits were more civilized than the Barbaric Islamic Invaders. They studied the local culture unlike the former, so they are no comparison.
      5) Sanskrit was primarily used only among the scholarly class. That's why you can see all the Scientific and Philosophical works to be in sanskrit. Sanskrit is the only Language that unites the nation, unlike tamil which is restricted to the South. And in Fact, it is logical to use simple language(Like Prakrit and Pali) if you want the masses to understand what you are conveying. That's why Both sanskrit and Prakrit co-existed . That's the reason why other languages flourished and sanskrit declined. There are far too many Grammatical rules in Sanskrit.

  38. Now I tell you some Invasions/Problems happened in the South with EVIDENCE.
    The south had mostly been exposed to Natural calamities and of-course has lost a lot. For example, Seven Pagodas, it is still a myth although we had some anecdotal evidence. All the Scientists who questioned or ridiculed the theory raised the eyebrows after 2004 Tsunami.(I am emphasizing the natural calamity and its damage in south, not the story of the seven pagodas)
    Heard of KALIPIRARGAL? the dark/Evil age of the south. Although the info about them is scarce , we have to believe there is a damage IN SOUTH like how you believed the North India Invasions. Evidence: Velvikudi inscriptions.
    And yes, as you said, the colonial period, Islamic raise. Amidst all these, we still have lot of inscriptions in South, not Just south but all over India for a reason: which is unknown and you can’t deny it, which I think is one of the potential reasons to question your belief about Sanskrit i:e source for Tamil.

    You say” If ancient Tamils knew more about Science, why did Julius Robert Oppenheimer, father of the Atomic bomb recalled the Gita after the first Atomic explosion?”
    So Juvenile, May I know what it has to do with the science of the Ancient Tamils who knew much about knowledge about Nature and knew how to preserve their information.
    You says “Why did Nobel Prize winner, Laureate Niels Bohr and Erwin Schrödinger praise the Vedas ?” So juvenile and rubbish to the context we talk about, May I know what it has to do with Tamil. Just because they praise Vedas, Sanskrit overcomes Tamil and Ancient Tamil’s science is not better, is what you mean?
    You know one thing: If the world can praise Alexander the Great, it should also praise the King Raja Raja Cholan for what he had done in Tanjore at least. If you don’t agree just because Tamil originated from Sanskrit, you have a serious problem.
    You know there are many big pauses in periods based on the info in Tamil inscriptions, so No one knows what happened in those periods like the Kalapirar reign.
    Regarding Navagraha, just because Jyoshya is mentioned in Vedas you can’t not say that it is originated in Sanskrit. Interpolation is everywhere, even it is with you.

    1. 1) You are being unsure of the natural Calamities in the South!
      For the record, there have been calamities in the North as well. The largest being the drying up of the river Saraswathi, which completed changed the way the Indians Did. Thousands of settlements along the saraswathi were wiped off completely. And we have Archaeological evidences for it unlike the imaginary Lemurian continent
      And it is pretty obvious that recent inscription indeed continue to exist and that's the reason why Tamil inscriptions still survive. and to be Honest, THERE ARE MORE TAMIL INSCRIPTIONS THAN SANSKRIT because Sanskrit was preliminarily a spoken language and even the small amount of written records were NOT INSCRIPTIONS on buildings , but on leaves.

      About Science, please don't get me started!
      Sanskrit is the Mother Tongue of Ancient Sciences. The entire Shastras, Samhitas and Sutras were dedicated to Science. Everything from Atoms to the Universe was recorded in Sanskrit. Charaka Samhita, Yoga Sutras, Ayurveda, Artha Shastra, Garbhopinishad ........ I could go on and on (I'm planning to pen another blog specifically on the Scientific and Mathematical achievements of Ancient Indians, It will be an exhaustive list , which can quench your thirst on Ancient Indian Science) . In fact, The first treatise on Mathematics was Sulabha Sutra . and Sanskrit is the most perfect language on earth, so much that it can be used for programming!
      So why don't you list down the Sciences in Ancient tamil? In fact it's you who is juvinile because you are mentioning Tanjore temple which is only a thousand years old when I am discussing about Ancient period.
      So why don't you act mature and list all the achievements in the field of Science by the Ancient Tamils?
      The Vedas have NOT been interpolated as said before because they use the 'pada' system of encryption.
      Go and search on 'padas' if you want more info.

  39. Since you are a firm believer of Vedas and it’s existence by your so called theory, all I am saying is you should also consider the fact that had been written in the Famous Tamil literatures same as the way that you believe the Sanskrit scholars. I don’t why you believe everything in Sanskrit scholars but not the Tamil poets /scholars(your comments show).
    Be unbiased and come out of the circle you have drawn to yourself and look, there are many things to see about Tamil which are yet to be explored in the form of Inscriptions which might surprise you as well. Finally, I would like to insist that you can’t conclude anything, and everything found is FOR NOW only coz science has its own limitations! You want a best example? MH370, which is yet to be found.

    1. I believe in anything which is logical. A flying monkey is equally as bad as a lady burning a city or continent getting wiped off instantaneously without any trace.
      I accepted the Vedas only after putting it to test. IT IS THE ONLY ANCIENT LITERATURE THAT HAS ENCRYPTED!
      I don't believe in Puranas, which are in sanskrit.
      But on the contrary, the Shastras, Smritis (only the scientific works) and Sutras are logical enough to believe.
      I admire Siddha Medicine and Marma Kalai, because it is scientific.
      This has got nothing to do with tamil or sanskrit, but with logic and science.

      Ithihashas and Puranas are interpolated. PERIOD

      If you still call me biased, it's you who is biased!

      Science indeed has limitations, but that doesn't mean it is completely wrong. Now assuming that the Geologists were wrong, it would question the whole understanding on the Earth Tectonics, Seismology and Oceanography .
      The above sciences are developed enough to make accurate conclusions.

      MH370 has a human intervention which was intentional. So people have to solve the puzzle put forward by the pilot to find the wreckage. Had it been a natural accident, it would have been found out easily.
      Science is always perfect and that's the reason why Ancient Indians flourished.

  40. You say Sanksrit united the kingdoms in India and used to communicate, it is a scholarly language, not for common man. Haha. If so, logically, there should have more temples and kingdoms with Sanskit evidences/Inscriptions. Because the Common Man follows what the King says, Kings gets the advices from Scholars /Poets traditionally. Your Assumptions service more defensive duties to your claims again and again!

    1. Sanskrit was used in Vijaynagaram empire,Tanjore Naik Kingdom , Nyakas of Keladi ,etc. even in the early modern Era, in Literature . Again sanskrit was sparsely used in the Medival period because much simpler languages evolved.
      You are completely wrong if you base your arguments solely on inscriptions because that's only one side of the dice.

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  42. First of all, thanks for pointing out the mistake in English (wrong usage) and congrats for being a English/Grammar Nazi.
    The invasion theory on Bricks and the demolishing the structure by you are not so impressive because we are not talking about a temple in a street, we are talking about the whole North INDIA. Moreover, you always come up with the smart techniques/theories not the actual facts to substantiate your claims like the bricks, structure …all are assumptions or one of the possible reasons or may be a fact… or bound to certain examples based on the assumptions of the current inscriptions. Sir ,when you make a bold statement like Sanskrit is the source for Tamil. Your claims and examples should hit nail on the head ,rather when someone posing a challenge you use Probable words in English like “almost, pretty much, assumptions based on current inscriptions etc.

    Regarding the Natural calamity, I have given the best possible evidence in south one can ever give i:e in 2004 ,something you and I watched. Please don’t come up with the Natural disaster theories of North which is nothing compared to South INDIA that is exposed to Sea. Apart from Seven Pagodas, I can even talk about Poombuhar with archaeological evidences, and Korkai too
    Regarding the British Invasions ,we are not talking about the attributes of Civilized vs Barbaric peoples. Just because the British were civilized, they had not done any barbaric activates? I am amazed by your usage of the Terms such “BARBARIC Islamic Invaders”. Just because they you used Barbaric, it is not adding strength to your claims like they destroyed all the temples north Indian temples. Going by your Logic, I can even fantasize that the Barbarians in those periods were scared of sacred/religious things in a region , and I can even assume they did not touch any temples because they afraid of its holiness. But it sounds ridiculous just like your theory of “civilized people vs barbarians and it assumptions around the invasions”.
    Raja Raja cholan example is against your examples of the American and the Europeans praising the Veda and mentioning the GITA. When you can come up with such silly ,juvenile examples during 1900’s, I can proudly come up with the Great Chola King and his achievements.

    1. In the same way, when you say that Tamil is the oldest language you have to have proofs for it.
      i)Pro-Tamils say that Homo Dravidans evolved 2,00,000 yrs ago, where is the proof?
      ii)They say that 1,00,000 yrs ago, the Tamil Civilization started, where is the proof?
      iii)You are unsure if Kumari Kandam is a City or a Continent and how can you claim me to be wrong?
      It is funny to know the Claims that Pro-Tamils make!

      You have to understand the difference between submerging of a 'City' and submerging of a 'Continent' .I find it hard that you are considering both as equals!

      You were the person who pulled the 'calamity' card! You talk as if North India is not at all prone to natural calamities. But the fact is that the drying up of the saraswathi river just erased the Indus Valley Civilization out of the map of India. There are proofs.

      You are having the attitude that Tamil Literature is superior to Science, which is absolute stupidity!
      Is this your whole argument?
      The fact is Science has proved beyond any doubt that there did NOT exist any continent like Lemuria in the Indian ocean .PERIOD
      So why not prove the scientist wrong and challenge the whole understanding of the earths's geology?

      Can you give me evidence showing that NONE OF THE TAMIL LITERATURE WAS INTERPOLATED?
      How was it preserved ? What encryption did it use?

      I use the word 'pretty much' because I want to be more colloquial. The exact defininiton of pretty much is 'very nearly' . I used the term because there were Islamic invasions even in Central India, which is VERY NEAR to the south. It is you who started to act like a Grammar Nazi by making a fuss about the words 'pretty much' ,but made a mistake in your comment. I gave a synonym!

      I term the Islamic conquest as Barbaric because they showed no respect to the Local culture. They went around destroying temples, force converting Hindus and showed no interest to study the local culture. Not to forget the Lakhs of Hindus they killed.
      The Brits weren't Barbaric. They were colonizers . There is a difference between both. Brits studied the Local culture, set up archaeology departments ,opened Indian Linguistic Departments in Europe, Did not destroy Temples. That makes a complete difference from the perspective of 'destroying a culture'.

      As I said, I never UNDERMINED the achievements of the Ancient Tamils. The point is who did it first. That's why in my last line I say that 'Tamil is worth every bit to attain the classical status'.

  43. What really concerns me is your logic which changes with time and situation:

    You reject these:

    All Tamil poets, including the recent DK polititians , are fantasy writers. We can’t trust them, they are not Geologists.
    We should not trust the greatest Tamil literature like Ainthiram
    No scientific eveidences on KumariKandam.
    You give amazing Tamil definition for the name “Tholkappiyam” but you don’t trust the fantasy writers of Tamil and its literature who mentioned KK. I am emphasizing your Tamil vs Actual Tamil in literatures.
    You disagree the books like Puram, Nannool, Kalithogai where KK is being mentioned. Indirectly, you mean the Authors are either a fantasy writers or blatant liars.

    You assume these:
    NA invasions destroyed all the North Temples.
    Barbaric Islamic Invaders.
    British are much civilized , they came here to research our civilization, didn’t touch a single temple or didn’t do any damage to the historic evidences in south.
    You use the second war references like the Nobel prize winner praised the Vedas. If foreigners said something about Vedas and mentioned Gita, then it’s great? Shall I say this as “Typical Indian attitude”
    Bricks , structures in the North Indian temples and all the assumptions around are bullocks, doesn’t speak volume.
    You emphasize the advantage of being a peninsula. But when I list the problems of Peninsula, you are kind of disagreeing.

    1. Did I ever say that Tamil poets were fantasy writers?
      I said that as times goes, literature gets interpolated and I also gave you the example of Ramayana and Mahabharata . What is the proof that they are not interpolated with?
      And yes, I do have a lot against Paavanar. He goes against Science. Would you believe the words of a Geologist (who has not studied Tamil) and he says that Paavanar has poor grammar ?
      Logic demands what is the procedure for his conclusion!
      In the same way, Paavanar just 'conveyed' what was written in Tamil literature. I know Ancient Indians were not stupid enough to write fantasy stories. But history loses it's pureness as time goes and this stories of Kumari Kandam arose.
      In fact, there is many references to Vishnu's Abode in many puranas, but is that true? In fact Vaikunth is not yet DISPROVED by science, so why don't we believe it ? Believe that it is in deep space?

      I don't consider the Tamil poets as fantasy writers and that's why I say it is interpolated. this is because I know that Ancient Indians weren't STUPID. If I say that Tamil poets are fantasy writers, even sanskrit poets would be.
      But you have to understand that both Tamil and Sanskrit works have been interpolated because these works are very ancient.
      That's why I claim even the sanskrit works to be interpolated.

      1) N.Indian Invasions destroyed much of Indian Culture. True. Thousands and Thousands of temples were destroyed. Many Libraries were burnt down.
      2)Brits are more civilized than the Islamic invaders because they at least took some steps to learn our culture. There were no middle eastern universities which taught Indian languages, but the west did it.
      3) Please list down the temples Brits have destroyed. The intention for which they came was completely different. The Islamic invaders wanted to spread Islam whereas the Europeans came for economic exploitation.

      4) You call it whatever you want ! But the fact remains the same. Then what can Your attitude be called? When you reject science?

      5) Kumari Kandam, Homo Dravida are also assumptions, which are proved wrong by Science. The fact is More artifacts can be found if it is excavated under the mosques ( I hope you are aware of the archaeological finds of a Hindu temple beneath the Babri Masjid in ayodhya). But I t would lead to further communal problems.

      Tsunami is indeed a problem of any coastal region.A tsunami can never destroy a civilization because the non coastal areas would be un affected. The Magnitude of a Tsunami will never be in the size of an Invasion.

  44. Do you know how hard is to completely explore an ocean bed, not just exploring amidst the unpredictable ocean currents, in order to come to a solid conclusion like yours?
    Do you know when was the last time the KK research happened?
    Do you know how much money it would cost to analyze/explore the complete sea bed to come to a complete conclusion?
    Can you tell us how much money the Government of India spent or showed interest in Dwarka research vs KK research? (Forget about Foreigners)
    Can you tell me why something considered as Myth for longer period of time made the Geologists to question their belief after 2004 tsunami on Seven Pagodas?
    Did you read the cost involved in the search of a small plane MH370 to look at the sea bed in 2 months.
    You say MH370 has human intervention when two dozen countries are not sure what the heck happened. You said this logically Or you said this Just because you have a computer and keyboard to type?

    Sir, Despite all, we still have lot of Tamil inscriptions in South, not Just south but all over India for a reason: which is unknown and you can’t deny it, which I think is one of the potential reasons to question your belief about Sanskrit i:e source for Tamil. Inscriptions are one side of the dice! It looks like you indirectly agree to a MINIATURE extent that there are some weakness in your claims too.

    1. I very well know about Marine archaeology.
      But geology plays an important role here. Using tectonic plate study, Lemuria has been disproved, so the question of marine archaeology doesn't even arise here.
      Had there been any evidence that there exists a landmass similar to KK, marine archaeologists would have made efforts to do something.

      You need to excavate only if some landmass existed. It is absolute STUPIDITY when geologists know that there is no landmass submerged and marine archaeologists still go an excavate (Which is absolute waste of Time,money and energy)

      You have to understand that Mamallapuram and Poompuhar are near the coast of Tamil Nadu and not in the middle of the ocean as KK is supposed to be.
      There are definitely more artifacts which are to be excavated from the waters of Tamil nadu and Gujarat. There is nothing denying it.
      But there is no evidence of KK .

      Ocean currents in middle of the sea is stronger than currents near the coast.The fact is the ancient people did not employ any tactics make the work tough for archaeologists whereas the Pilot has done something to make the work tough for the Airplane operators.
      If you still keep arguing that KK exists and Science is too immature to handle it, I can also say that Sanskrit is a million year old language (as per puranas) and the science is even more immature to handle it.

      If you are basing your arguments on Brahami, you are completely wrong. The fact is Brahmi was used to write multiple languages including Prakrit. If your interpretation can go this wild, I can claim the inscription in Indus are Sanskrit, but yet to be deciphered! That would make me a stupid!

      First go and read the difference between Brahmi and Tamil-Brahmi! In fact both uses the same script!

  45. Aditya,

    Yes, I can bring up the calamity card again and again with new examples. I am not saying that the North is not at all prone to Nature. All I am saying is North didn’t lose as much as south to Nature. Do you want to know about the disaster happened in Gangaikonda chola puram, a new example!!. Moreover, I noticed you bring up the same example again, perhaps you were busy find a new example and didn’t get. Okay, so you want to know the list of temples that south lost?

    Do you even know about Tipu sultan and the temples he destroyed in south? Narasimhamoorthy Temple near Angadipuram, Vadukunda Siva Temple of Madai, Kannur District etc. I can come up with more than 20 temple names. Reference? Gazetteer of Mysore.
    Do you even know about Maruthu Brothers? read their hidings are anonymous temples or Forts? Read all were destroyed by British to make it tough for them to hide? You never know what South Lost?
    Do you know about the one of the longest and bloodiest war in English East India Company history , and do you know it happened in south? Do you know it is cotiote war? DID YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT WHAT SOUTH LOST in this war?

    Now stop the bullocks on Invasions. South and North have lost, besides all, south has a lot of Inscriptions and it keeps coming out. So it definitely shows the weakness in your claims,and you cannot hide yourself behind the North India invasions w.r.t to inscriptions. Period.

    1. Your argument sounded like South was completely ravaged by disasters! North Din't lose that much? What did south Lose except few Cities? Tell me! The whole Indus CIVILIZATION was wiped off because of a natural calamity. Do you get the difference between City and Civilization?
      Forget it! I am talking about a person who considers a continent as a city!

      More than Twenty! OMG! That's it you could get? There thousands and thousands of temples which were destroyed in the north! The Holiest sites weren't spared too!

      Europeans did not destroy the physical structures, but our intellect .The made Indians feel inferior. I very well know the history of cotiote war, that's nothing compared to the wars fought in the North! Do I need to remind you of the wars fought by the Sikhs, Marathas and Rajputs?

      Indeed south and North have lost many things, but North has lost way more than South. It was constantly invaded for a millennium.

      Why don't you go and read history?

      You keep cribbing that South has lost this, South has lost that, but turn a blind eye to what the north has faced.

    2. The examples of calamities ,Invasions and wars I provided are to show you that South Indeed have lost. Because you sounded like Nothing happened to South.Perhaps you forgot, you once said Tamilnadu remain untouched until british came. Just wanted to prove your claims are wrong, there were wars in south and there is something called Calamities. Gazetteer of Mysore says Tipu army iteslf have destroyed 8000 temples in South. They have mentioned temples with names and location.(Go and search the Internet by yourself) Unlike your blind claims like thousands and thousands of Temple lost in North just to convince the readers using defensive words from History books. Usage of Thousands and Thousands are not going to support anything but again shows your desperation on SANKSRIT ,which you conclude is the source of Tamil and everything.
      Immature! when you say a cotiote war is nothing, Bloodiest and Longest war fought in the East India company history. I am stunned by usage of words like "Nothing". It is like a child claiming everything that it says is the best. Moreover, please read my comments again. I have said both North and South have lost. When we talk about inscriptions,you cannot hide and base everything on North Invasions as the reason for meagre amount of Inscriptions in Sanskrit.(I know the magnitude of Invasion. Period.)

  46. Science vs Tamil Literature. First of all, I never put Tamil literature ahead of science. It is you who put science ahead of EVERYTHING without any solid foundation(claims) and I questioned your claims on science.. If someone put Tamil literature ahead of science, then it is stupid? You are now going crazy with your words and losing your mind just like you did with everyone ,which I say is childish. And I never played with English words, I knew English is an amazing language which I am learning still.

    Now, Interpolations are everywhere, sir. No encryption techniques followed in Tamil to preserve. Encryption techniques are needed only for manipulated/man-made stuffs with intentions to preserve not for something which evolved . We have inscriptions in temples which proves again and again and is one of the finest form of preservation of our Tamil culture & its information. Moreover, People preserve it and is hidden in their culture and it is in their DNA(like someone said in comments). E.g Take a look at Tamil God, Murugan, on top of the Mountains. It conveys, “go to a higher land mass when ocean shows it face. I am not emphasizing any myth/stories around Lord Murugan, don’t come up with your opinions on lord Muruga and change the topic.

    You say Sanskrit is for Scholarly people.(Bullocks). You say it is not for Brahmins. May I know what is your definition for a Brahmin and a Scholarly people? And finally you are the one who says, SANSKRIT is the source for everything. When it is the source for everything how come it is not used by a common man and how come it is for scholarly people. You mean all the people in certain period of time are non-educated and needed a simplified version? Where is the proof? Don’t come up with logical explanations and something in vedas.

    1. You indeed did!
      You stood by the Claim of KK , which is against Science.

      Yes Science is ahead of everything. That's what Ancient Indians also did. They weren't mesmerized in Mythology, unlike us!

      The fact is KK is a continent (as pavaanar and others claim so) and it has been disproved by geologists. PERIOD

      Any literature in front of Science is NOT stupid, as long as it is logical.
      Do you mean to say flying monkeys is logical ? (Ramayana)
      A lady could burn a city and everyone were plucking flowers? (Kannigi)
      I mean, how could you possibly believe in the above stories?

      Indeed i'm also not perfect in English. It is a language of survival, not passion.

      On interpolations and inscriptions.
      I would completely agree with your point, Had the inscriptions available were done by the authors themselves. The fact is that they have been transmitted over generations and then inscribed on walls. I'm talking about the time before the inscriptions and not after it.
      What's the guarantee that it was transmitted with pin point perfection ?
      Ever Heard of Chinese Whisper?
      (Google it)

      This is non-sense talk. Tamil is in my DNA. Scientifically speaking there is no difference in a DNA of a north Indian and a South. And you wouldn't know tamil had you been born to non-Tamil parents. All this is loose talk, let's be practical!

      Sanskrit is for Scholars. It is a LANGUAGE and it doesn't belong to any community.
      Definition of a scholar :A scholar is a person who is mastered any field of Art or Science. His words need to have clarity and a Scholar should not have any hindrances to express his views. That's why sanskrit is preferred.

      A Brahamin is any person who educates the society. He should not have Ego or prejudice. He should be truthful and be the protector of Dharma. He should correct others. This is what the vedas themselves say!

      Personally, I'm against birth based caste system!

      You keep asking the same thing again and again.
      Sanskrit is too complex for the common man.

      To put it in simpler terms, for you to understand Sanskrit is the Bare Act of Laws, and other languages are commentaries to it.
      A student can never understand the Bare Act, In fact many lawyers themselves can't . Only a person who has knowledge and experience can.
      So when some one asks you What book is prescribed for say Company Law, would you say the Bare Act or Company Law by so and So?

      The proof is that Sanskrit was used as the Language for Scholars when Prakrit and Pali THRIVED. What more proof do you need?
      Kalidasa was writing Literature in Sanskrit , when Prakrit was being used !

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    3. I stood by the claim of KK. Simple. Because I believe in a land mass going under water, for which I gave you some example of something which was once at sea level went into the Sea.(Now don’t assume KK is huge ,a continent and don’t come up with Tectonic plates theories , and don’t come up with your billion years logic) Again and Again , I certainly agree the Size of KK cannot be as huge as it has been claimed, but I wouldn’t rule that out completely .

      Neither did I believe in the FLYING Monkey ,nor did I say or told you that I believe in a lady who burnt the whole city. These stories always convey a meaning hidden E.g a lady’s curse-It is not going to each and every house with a fire Stick and put kerosene and burnt. I think the old cinemas have definitely corrupted your brain. Back to the lady’s curse, it is the scorching sun, poverty, drought to destroy the people. OMG! what do we miss most of the time is Common sense! You know one thing when desperation overcomes a man, then he tends to lose his common sense; but that doesn’t mean, the desperation is the source of every mistakes he makes. you know what I mean!

      The DNA thing is not as loose as the you made by basing everything on history books/Assumptions/Bricks/Structures etc. Regardless, does that mean you don’t believe in Genetic research; did not you believe in evidences surfaced last year that Indians Migrated to Australia and you ruled that out completely?! Reference: Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology had revealed their research on this topic.

      Your definition of scholar and Brahmin is okay, but when you said the definition of Brahmin is mentioned in Vedas, now that’s ridiculous. You don’t agree to the caste system by birth, does that mean you agree to the definition of a Brahmin in vedas or not?I don’t have a word here, sir. Being source for everything, preserved by best the encryption techniques(as per your claims), may I know the origin of a Brahmin word? Since Sanskrit is not common man, is it the Sanskrit lovers(scholars who knew the language) created it going by your theory. Is it them who are the Brahmins?(I have my own separate understanding though).

      When you say a language is not for a common man, now it loses all the credibility; When you say Sanskrit is the source for everything, whoever used Sanskrit IN ANCIENT time were not a common man? Or you claim it never used at any point in time, but the source for everything? Rubbish!
      when you say it uses the best encryption techniques, now it loses all the remaining credibility if there is any. Again and Again I comeback and ask about Sanskrit because: every time you say something, it eliminates the miniature amount of doubts in READERS that Sanskrit is definitely not the source. Thank you!

      Now Tamil on the other hand, it is a common man language; it didn’t use any encryption techniques. You can see that I have given many examples on how the Tamil language, Tamil literature and the people are in sync. E.g. Knowledge of space in Tamil Temples(Nature), Pongal festival( Worshipping Nature), Lord Muruga on the Mountain, save yourself when ocean raise(Nature),(words related to sea like Kodungadal in Tamil mentioned in Puram , Kailthogai, Silambu). Just like the words mentioned in literatures, Tamil Nadu lost to the ocean: Poombuhar, Korkai, Mahabalipuram (what you see is not everything in Mahabaliprm), 2004 tsunami damages, last but not the least the Huge land mass went in to the sea(KK), encryption techniques in Tamil in the form of Inscriptions (Nature). Did someone write a script to make everything in sync? All these are for you to think healthily and doubt your own claims i:e ” Sanskrit is the source for Tamil”. Rubbish!

  47. Finally , don’t pull me into KK TOPIC. As always , I have never agreed the size, but I would not throw it out of my pocket .Despite mines, I know what is your intention to turn a blind eye to Kumari Kandam. If it’s existence is proved , you can’t claim that Sanskrit is older to Tamil. When blog is about whether or not KK exists, it is a different story; since it is about Sanskrit is source for Tamil, which is baseless, there is a need to talk about KK too.It’s like Mulla mullala edu in Tamil!
    Regarding KK , take a look at your blog and comments one more time , you say scientist have proved beyond their doubt on KK. Did you even care about mentioning the name of the scientists, their research techniques?
    Did you even care about mentioning the efforts of the scientists, the source and the money the Govt. of India had spent ever ,to convince the readers to prove your point?
    Did you even care to mention about the Kerguelen Plateau and the findings ? Although it has not been linked to KK, there are evidences kept coming and challenged Science.
    When you make a bold statement, a controversial statement, you are bound to receive questions , aren’t you?

    Moreover, I noticed that you have mentioned points like “I myself put Sanskrit in test”, these are not going to convince anyone, even the neutrals, rather it shows your desperation more than your motive:e to remove the stain made by DK .
    Secondly, I noticed you call everyone who believed or opened their mouth about KK are either ignorant or stupid. Sir, then why there were so much research /efforts on the lost continent of Lemuria, going by your theory, all the scientists are stupid, they should not even have researched as it is illogical.

    Sir, Finally,all I am saying is SCIENCE CAN PROVE OR DISPROVE A FACT BUT SCIENCE IS NOT A FACT. You see my point?! Happy blogging.

    Ps: I know there are many blogs in internet and have seen many bloggers who kept thinking that if they make the stone left unreturned, they proved their point and kind of won the situation. Bullocks!

  48. KK is a very integral point in the antiquity of Tamil.

    Scientists have indeed proved that Lemuria did not exist beyond doubt because of the Tectonic plate movement.

    JOIDES Resolution A research vessel has done a survey on Kerguelen Plateau . FYI, it submerged under the ocean, 20 million years ago and is 2 km beneath the sea.
    Dan McKenzie has also contributed a lot to the understanding of plate tectonics.
    You can go and see the ocean floormap to get a detailed idea of the submerged landmasses.

    Investing money on searching of lemuria (Which is BTW disproved by science) is like investing on a space mission to find Vaikunta, the abode of vishnu!

    Evidence keeps coming? Where? please give me some!

    I never asked why you questioned me and I am replying to each and every one of yours.

    Yes people who believe in KK are ignorant or stupid! How can a person go against an Established Scientific fact?
    It is like believing in Black Magic!
    Please list out your RESEARCHES ?

    Science is the truth. anything against the truth is not a fact. So the fact is Lemuria is not true.

    1. aya thaangal kooruvadhai otthukolgiraen

      yaarum yaarum yaaragiyaro

      kadavul ondru ..... pirappu, irappu .... i have many words with you can correlate with cant this is different word

  49. Yes, there is no Lemuria, PROVED by science. Agree. But no one can deny the fact there can be a land mass which was once at the sea level went in to the sea.
    Would you compare researching the Vaigunda in space vs researching a landmass went under the sea?

    Yes we are all know Doctor MC kenzie contributed to the plate theory, but I asked you what scientists had to say about Lemuria? Not their contribution on plate theories.Dont give us examples just for the same of examples. I said evidence kept coming and challenged the science(past tense).

    Professor Karsten M. Storetvedt, the chairman in geomagnetism at the University of Bergen, Norway, and an author of the Global Wrench Theory (GWT), says that the equator regions have always been most prone to natural catastrophes like earthquakes and volcano eruptions. A part of explanation is that planet rotation and especially the difference in rotation speed between poles and equator force earth mantel to strain and to break more easily where the strain is strongest, that is at the equator regions
    These tectonic processes played important role in the disappearance of the ancient continent known as Lemuria to western scholars. Sri Lanka together with India, Indonesia and Malaysia were a part of this continent. Many islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans are remnants of this continent that in ancient time covered the whole area of today's ocean. Source: Copied from an article.

    If you see above, would you dare to call that Prof an Idiot and an Ignorant? So when someone talk about KK, doesn’t mean that is stupidity and ignorance. You see my point?!!!

    There is always a certain degree of uncertainty associated with science. There is nothing called Absolutely proven facts in science, if there is, then it is debatable. Now, Heard of Karl Raimund Popper? You definitely will hate him!

    1. I compared Vaikunt because it is given in Sanskrit Literature (as KK in Tamil) and it has not yet been DISPROVED. On the other Hand, KK has been disproved and you still want to waste money on it.

      Lemuria was disproved because of the Tectonic Plate movement, and MCKenzie was pioneers in that field. He din't even mention a continent like Lemuria in his works, which means he indirectly proved that Lemuria never existed.

      Karsten M. Storetvedt REJECTS the Tectonic Plate movement, which has been scientifically accepted .

      According to his theory earthquakes are caused by gas explosions and can happen anywhere, not only along the plate borders, as suggested by earlier theories.

      Moreover he has just proposed a theory, but there are enough evidences for Tectonic Plate movement.
      In fact, Karsten M. Storetvedt has not proved his theory beyond any reasonable doubt.

      I am not a geologist, so I just say what the Scientific community Says. The Scientific community has proved the Tectonic Plate movement.

      I won't call him because I am not Qualified to call him one!

      the problem with you is you don't seem to accept that there are indeed some problems with human literature itself. They are prone to interpolations .
      In fact the theory of Lemuria was raised to show the presence of Lemurs in Madagascar and India.
      He gave no proofs for it's existence
      So the very evidence behind the Lemurian theory is not scientific.

      This is in the same lines of the Aryan Invasion theory, where it was said that N.Indians were from Europe just because of their skin colour !
      But DNA has proved otherwise.

      I don't hate anybody. I want to believe in the Truth. My Ego won't stop me from accepting the truth.

      And assuming that The Tamil Literature is right on Lemuria, would you accept what sanskrit literature on the antiquity of Sanskrit, on the same logic that science is not developed or perfect to prove it?
      If you don't accept it, do you mean to say that Sanskrit poets are Stupid and fantasy writers?
      If you consider them to be stupid and fantasy writers, what's the proof that Tamil works are different from them?

      This will be an endless argument, that's why I have stuck to the present standards in Science. They may or may not be changed, but until then whatever I have given is what Science has currently given us.

    2. I dont want to comment on whole subject. but to say one point here.. Aga means Mountian and Asthi means Thrower - this is a stupid meaning here because, the sanskrit pandits in dravidian regions wantedly changed the meaning of tamil names into sanskrit names and also coined lot of puraanas which has no base. agasthiar is the sanskrit version and meaning given by them.. the real tamil meaning is, Agathiyar, which means, Agam - inside.. Thi - fire, Yar - respect, a man who has fire inside is the original meaning of" Agathiyar." the fire here means one who has found the fire of truth, the fire of shiva, the shiva jothi. according to tamil sangam literatures, there have been 7 Agathiyars periodically. but the sanskrit scholars wantedly changed it to sanskrit and created stories accordingly and spreaded them for centuries. go with history and question yourself so as not to be fooled by puraanas.. puraanas were said to give some good character building, but when comes to history, it will no stand. tamil is the oldest langauage and its proved by world scholars. pls google it. :"samaskritham" means, saman paduthupata skritham - words were borrowed from tamil to complete the scripts to equalize the unequalized language. According to facts, even the written form was given by pallava kings to ashoka and it is called asoka grantha, which is modified tamil brami. you can find Tamil words in rig veda itself. pl google it from verified theories. i am not against sanskrit or any other language, but history is history. Tamil is worlds first and currently living classical language. thank you.

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. You compare Vaikundam , something on the space where God lives as per Sanskrit vs Kumari Kandam , something went into the sea where human lived per Tamil Literatures!! Holy Macro!!!.....
      Just because a scientist didn’t mention about Lemuria, doesn’t mean it is disproved. There are many logical theories around. Genetic Research by John Marshall, I did read sometime back, an object found in the Indian ocean , the age of the Object on research was worth enough to prove all the scientists were wrong, SOME civilization as old as Lemuria did exist. I know all these are worth for a debate.
      But Your claim of a scientist didn’t say anything about Lemuria ,so I assumed it didn’t exist is beyond QUESTIONABLE considering the fact that there were NUMBER of controversies around Lemuria. It is like pulling a mountain is possible literally. It is like saying “Since MH370 is not found yet, Aliens Grabbed it JUST like the crow lifting the Vada from the old lady ,and challenging everyone to ask for proof that MH370 is not grabbed by Aliens?”
      MH370 , I know as time goes by , will definitely be found. It shows uncertainty of the science in present , but has the ability only to prove or disprove in future, which I was talking about just in my above comment.

      Everything has interpolation. Just like you saying, all the Tamil literatures are interpolated. I, with all conscience, for the sake of Tamil, can dare to say “SANSKRIT, A LANGUAGE AS A WHOLE, IS AN INTERPOLATION ITSELF.” It is as bold as your statement “SANKSRIT IS THE SOURCE FOR TAMIL”. I know, having questioning the encryption techniques which I don’t believe in, neither of the statements can be ABSOLUTELY proved or disproved scientifically!

      It would have been nice if you had mentioned your last paragraph(below) in the blog itself. I agree.
      “This will be an endless argument, that's why I have stuck to the present standards in Science. They may or may not be changed, but until then whatever I have given is what Science has currently given us”

      On a separate Note, the volume of the info in this blog is huge. A treasure! I am damn sure , you, at one of point, should have been surprised to the core by the information! It was nice talking ,in-fact, arguing with you ! Bye!
      Sad to say, but there won’t be any more replies from me!



  51. "Classical" languages[edit]
    In 2004, the Government of India declared that languages that met certain requirements could be accorded the status of a "Classical Language in India".[32] (These are not classical languages in the usual sense.) Languages thus far declared to be Classical are Tamil (in 2004),[33] Sanskrit (in 2005),[34] Telugu (in 2008), Kannada (in 2008),[35] Malayalam (in 2013)[36] and Oriya (in 2014).[37][38]

    In a 2006 press release, Minister of Tourism & Culture Ambika Soni told the Rajya Sabha the following criteria were laid down to determine the eligibility of languages to be considered for classification as a "Classical Language",[39]

    High antiquity of its early texts/recorded history over a period of 1500–2000 years; a body of ancient literature/texts, which is considered a valuable heritage by generations of speakers; the literary tradition be original and not borrowed from another speech community; the classical language and literature being distinct from modern, there may also be a discontinuity between the classical language and its later forms or its offshoots.

    The Indian Government has been criticised for not including Pali as a classical language, as experts have argued it fits all of the above criteria.[40]


    "Classical" languages of india
    In 2004, the Government of India declared that languages that met certain requirements could be accorded the status of a "Classical Language in India".[32] (These are not classical languages in the usual sense.) Languages thus far declared to be Classical are Tamil (in 2004),[33] Sanskrit (in 2005),[34] Telugu (in 2008), Kannada (in 2008),[35] Malayalam (in 2013)[36] and Oriya (in 2014).[37][38]

    In a 2006 press release, Minister of Tourism & Culture Ambika Soni told the Rajya Sabha the following criteria were laid down to determine the eligibility of languages to be considered for classification as a "Classical Language",[39]

    High antiquity of its early texts/recorded history over a period of 1500–2000 years; a body of ancient literature/texts, which is considered a valuable heritage by generations of speakers; the literary tradition be original and not borrowed from another speech community; the classical language and literature being distinct from modern, there may also be a discontinuity between the classical language and its later forms or its offshoots.

    The Indian Government has been criticised for not including Pali as a classical language, as experts have argued it fits all of the above criteria.[40]

  53. Languages thus far declared to be Classical are Tamil (in 2004),[33] Sanskrit (in 2005),[34] Telugu (in 2008), Kannada (in 2008),[35] Malayalam (in 2013)[36] and Oriya (in 2014).[37][38]

  54. mr.aditya, if u r not able to give reply to jabob means, then u better get away from here. you proved u r a coward by deleting his further comments. shame on you? Its a discussing blog. Who r u to say that he is wrong.

  55. Mr Aditya, I read your preface. Your question was "Did Tamil originate from Sanskrit?"
    My categorical answer is simply "No". Just count the numbers from 1 to 10 in both Languages and you would have answered yourself "No". If you tried to say the very fundamental words of "He, she, it, they, me, you, who, which, when", you would have answered yourself "no". If you have tried to say the words for body parts, you would have answered yourself "No".

    Your contention that Aghastiyar wrote the first book in Tamil and he was a Sanskrit Guru does not mean anything. It only says that the man came down to South, learnt the language of the people, wrote a grammar book, married a Tamil woman by the name of Kaveri and died. Thirukkural contains 3 Sanskrit words in the very first poem? Thiruvalluvar was a philosopher and he was not a linguist and the vast majority of Thirukkural does not contain Sanskrit the way you think. The words have come into the language as per the grammer rules. Well, you quoted TholKappiyam to have Sanscrit half in it. Thank God, the book is called "Thol" kappiyam! I am not a linguist but just because we use "Bus", "Train", "Flight" in Tamil or Hindi does not mean Tamil and Hindi are derived from English!

  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

  57. This comment has been removed by the author.

  58. Aditya, I read a lot of posts here. You seem to have two things going on in your mind. (1) Firstly, you have an agenda against DK. I understand. DK, as I understand was founded to oppose the tyranny of untouchability which existed 100 years ago and seems to exist still but happily seems to be on the decline. I think that in about 100 years, a large amount of the inhuman aspects of caste-ism would have vanished. (2) Secondly it seems to me that your quest to establish superiority and antiquity of Sanskrit over Tamil is kind of pointless. Since you say that you "know Tamil" and the way you said it, it makes me to say that your mother tongue is Tamil. Obviously you ought to be knowing that the languages themselves are of different roots and hence there is no basis for the question which is older. If any one asks me whether Mandarin is older or Sanskrit is older and then if I say "Sanscrit is older than Mandarin" or vice versa, there will be enough room to call me a lunatic. Now, just because Tamil (for that matter any Dravidian Language) is spoken in regions adjoining a region where Sanskrit flourished does not mean Sanskrit is older even if these languages have borrowed words from Sanskrit.

    Now, it brings me back to question your motive of the topic. Most likely you were trying to say whether Tamil influences people's morals and enhances knowledge or Sanskrit does it better. Or may be which one is "richer". In this context, I would say Sanskrit is a language of criminals who instituted "apartheid" system and oppressed the masses for centuries and millenniums and is not worth the salt at all. Tamil and its people accepted these conditions and hence I am not in much praise either. However there is enough in Tamil literature which is very secular in nature for which one could be very proud of.

    1. DK movement is against the Indian union. It completely alienates Tamil Nadu from India. It is similar to the Khalistan Movement. Do I need to educate you on the fact that DK wanted a separate country, "Dravida Nadu" ?That was the very reason why Anna Durai parted from the DK to form The DMK.
      So what makes you think that I need to sympathies with the DK?

      I have just put forward a different point of view, with the necessary evidences. There is a difference between reality/truth and what a person believes in. Just because Tamil is my mother tongue, doesn't mean that I shouldn't praise another language. One has to study both the languages in order to come to a conclusion. My point is all the people who shout Tamil, Tamil, have never gone beyond it to study other languages.
      Its like the story of Frog in the pot.

      You are saying that Tamil and Sanskrit has different origins.Now assuming your argument is correct,
      1) Why is the arrangement of alphabets of both the languages is the same?
      2) Why is there so much of similarity between the Shiva (in sanskrit literature) and Shiva (in Saiva Siddhanta) ?
      I mean the culture is too much similar for them to have different origin.

      And moreover, Down south, both languages were used in the Court of Kings.

      So Chinese and Sanskrit cannot be a good comparison, because both have different alphabets,culture and region, whereas in the case of Sanskrit and Tamil, it's shockingly similar.

      This cannot be mere attributed to co-incidence because it's very similar.

      And on your last para.
      That's the problem with the Entire Indian people. They blindly believe what the westerners preached.
      If Sanskrit was indeed the language of Criminals (Brahamins,as the DK calls them)
      -How can Veda Vyasa (the compiler of the Holy Vedas and the author of Mahabaratha) be born to a fisherwomen?
      -How can Valmiki (the author of Ramayana) a thief, be revered as a Scholar?
      -The most important. The greatest Sanskrit Poet of all times, Kalidasa, was born to a Shepherd.

      Now if indeed, it was a language of criminals and the scholarly class, how could people from humble backgrounds excel in sanskrit?

      The answer is simple. The caste system.
      As per the vedas, Caste is not determined by the birth, but by action. This slowly turned to birth based and the Brahamins weren't the only to be blamed. The Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are also to be blamed. In fact, the Kshatriyas would be perennial kings and Vaishyas would be filthy rich for generations and the brahamins would get only to chant a few holy mantras and have no material wealth when compared to the Vaishyas and Ksatriyas.
      But Yeah! let's blame the Brahamins! Why only them? Why not the Vaishyas and Kshatriyas?

      And I am completely against the caste system. But I am also against stereotyping a community, for the no wrong they did (their ancestors may/may not have done it)

      Your logic is like the Hitler Logic. Let's kill the jews because they killed Jesus.

      In that case, you should confront the Muslims and Christians before the Brahamins.

  59. @aditya.... Mann!!! why are you so much against tamil !! M getting the feeling that you are sick!!1 and please don't conclude that hinduism is all because of sanskrit!!!

    1. I'm a tamil myself and I'm not against tamil. Did I abuse the language in any place? It is just one angle of interpretation. Moreover I have given necessary evidences wherever needed. I'm against the DK, who spread lies and criticize Hinduism and Ironically Great Poets like Thiruvalluvar, Avviyar and Aggatiyar were theists and not atheists .

    2. Aditya it seems Nitesh is trying a reverse philosphy here where actually he is getting angry on you because you backed yourself with proof and now he is expressing his emotions here by telling that you are abusive.

  60. Aditya, I am just amazed at your rants. You even brought Hitler into the mix! First and foremost, let us concentrate on whether the languages Sanskrit and Proto South Indian (of which Tamil is simply a member). All of us know that the structure is damn different. If you are not able to see this, you are simply pretending too much. You are putting up a view that these language are related simply because the alphabets are arranged "similarly". You are you so naive and simplistic. If Vietnamese is written using English alphabets, does that mean that Vietnamese and English are related like twin sisters? Let me venture to say that the way letters are organized seems to be actually borrowed from Tamil/South Indian to Sanskrit. If you count from 1 to 10 in English and Sanskrit, it is almost the same and so many similarities that researchers have attributed the same class to English and Sanskrit as "Indo Euoropean" while South Indian is in an unrelated tree. But then why are the alphabets arranged differently in English and Sanskrit? That could be because Sanskrit borrowed this arrangement from Tamil!
    This question whether Tamil and Sanskrit are of different trees has been settled beyond any doubt and your vehement opposition is insignificant.
    Now you are quoting a few things like "Siva" and "Saiva Siddhantha" etc. These are cultural lineages of recent or middle origin. These have no bearing on the origins of the languages. Many Moslems or Christians may practice their own religions as closely as possible as in Israel or Rome or Arabia. However in their heart of heart, they love the language their parents taught them to express their feelings and would be proud of their heritage. Honestly, if you subtract your mother tongue from your tongue, the next thing you will realize your life has ended. With your Sanskrit, you will fall behind.
    Aditya dear, we live in the 21st century. If anybody practices the casteism (and hatred) written in Sanskrit literature, it will be unacceptable and considered uncivilized. One will be left behind. In your own language, you will be become a frog in a pot and marginalized.
    I could not understand why you brought Hitler into this topic. And to make matters straight, Hitler was an Aryan Supremacist and would have sent all the South Indians to the gas chambers for questioning the language of Aryans as simply a casteist and criminalistics literature!
    As I understand, even though your topic is "Did Tamil originate from Sanskrit?" (for which the answer is unequivocally "No"), your tirade is actually against DK. Because you are the one who is drawing DK into a fight here, I have to assume their mantle. You have no clue at all what has affected India (including my mother South India) because of the hate filled Sanskrit literature. There is simply nothing in Bagawat Gita or Brahminism except hatred, violence, fantasy, treachery and deceit. There is simply no affirmation; everything is negation. Slavery was abandoned in dear America within 100 to 200 years of its practice. Apartheid was dismantled in South Africa in a matter of a century or so. Some atonement has been done short of a public apology. Fact is that many whites lost their lives for freeing slaves. Your fair India is lagging far behind in humanitarian grounds. As long as Indians consider Brahminism and Bagawat Gita to be the soul of India, there is practically nothing to be proud of and on the contrary, pain and suffering for the masses for eternity to come and guilt and shame accumulating to the practicing followers of Brahmanism and Bagawat Gita and for a long long time to come.
    (to be continued in the next post…)

  61. ... Continued from the previous post ...

    You are asking questions about why DK wanted a separate South India and separate Tamil Nadu. I was not there. But what is wrong about that? Why Khalistan cannot be a separate country? You must be insane. If there is a critical mass to form a nation with resources and will power and if this critical masses think that injustice is being done to them, there is simply no reason why these masses should not separate into different nations. Nations merging and separating has been happening in our own life times as ever. There are instances to this day that South Indians (Non Brahmins and yes Brahmins too) are not treated fairly in India. I do not have to give you many examples. Ask yourself how Gavaskar behaved when Venkatraghavan was made the captain of the Cricket team. You just have to talk to S.Janaki as to why she refused to accept the central govt award. DK was making an attempt to get a separate South India was correct imho but perhaps immature because the masses were impoverished to take up causes.
    Lastly, let me quote you this observation from an eminent person about Thirukkural as opposed to Brhamnism and Bagawat Gita: "There hardly exists in the literature of the world’s Collection of maxims, in which we find so much lofty wisdom. Maxims about joy and activity such as one would not expect from Indian lips bear witness to the strength of the world and life affirmation present in the Kural. So a natural and ethical world life affirmation of this kind was present among the people of India ( substitute Tamil country here please) at the beginning of our era although nothing of that can be found in Brahmanism, Buddhism and Bhagavd Gita Hinduism”.
    Though people including Brahmins may observe rituals and things like that, these are done only for the namesake and nobody gives a damn about Gita and Brahmanism because these are false things. However the secular teachings of which you find plenty in Tamil is very helpful. You ought to be thankful to your mom having taught you one of the languages of secular and the free world rather than the language of the criminals of the past based on casteism and filth.

  62. Aditya, congrats. You are the only one making sense here.Tamils have insecurity about their own language. Lot of Tamils are also Tamil bigots and parochial. I am a Tamil and I accept that Sanskrit isa superior language to Tamil and possibly, Tamil originated from Sanskrit.
    Here Shri Sarang taking on the parochial Tamils in Tamil
    பாணினீய சமஸ்க்ருதம் ஒரு செயற்கை மொழி தான். யார் இல்லை என்றால். நன்றாக செய்தது என்று தான் அதற்கு அர்த்தம் எதில் இருந்து என்றால் சந்தஸீ என்ற வேத மொழியிலிருந்தும் அவ்வேத மொழியின் பிரிவுகளாக நடைமுறையில் இருந்த வட்டார வேறுபாடுகளில் இருந்தும். இதை அவரே சொல்கிறார். அவர் தமிழை குறிப்பிட வில்லை. பதஞ்சலி என்று இதற்கு பாஷ்யம் எழுதியவரும் இதை நன்கு விளக்குகிறார். பாணினி செய்தது சந்தஸ் மற்றும் வாட்டார மொழிகளுக்கு ஒரு over arching தளம் தந்தது. உதாரணமாக சொல்லப் போனால் சமஸ்க்ருதத்தில் தாதுக்கள் நித்யம். அவைகளில் இருந்துதான் வினை சொற்கள் வரும். பூ என்ற தாதுவில் இருந்து பவதி (இருத்தல்). சுர என்ற தாதுவில் இருந்து சோரயதி (திருடுதல்). பூ மற்றும் சுர என்ற இவ்விரண்டு தாதுவுக்கும் எத்தனை வேறுபாடு உள்ளது பாருங்கள். இவ்விரண்டிலிருந்து ஒரே மாதிரி வினைச்சொல் எப்படி கொண்டு வருவது அதற்காக அவர் சில சட்டங்களை அமைக்கிறார், தாதுக்கள பத்து குழுக்களாக பிரிக்கிறார். ஒவ்வொரு குழுவுக்கும் ஒரு சட்டம். கிட்டத்தட்ட கணிதம் போன்று இருக்கும்.
    பாணி செய்தது இந்த சட்டம் கொண்டது வந்தது தான். அப்படி சட்டத்திற்குள் அடக்கி பேசும் மொழி சமஸ்க்ருதம் அல்லது பாணினீய பத்ததி என்றாயிற்று. அதாவது முன்னே மொழி பேச்சு வழக்கில் இருந்தது அதை என்னும் சீர்திருத்தி சட்ட திடாம் கொண்டு வந்து மெருகேற்றப்பட்டது.

    இது தான் சமஸ்க்ருததின் கதை. நீங்கள் முடிவு செய்தது என்ன. ஓஹோ முன்னாடி எதுவும் இல்லை, சமஸ்க்ருதம் தமிழில் இருந்து வந்தது என்று.

    சமஸ்க்ருத பதங்கள் எந்நாளும் இடுகுரிபெயராக இரா. வேறு மொழியில் இருந்து கடன் வாங்கினால் இடுகுறி பெயாராக தான் அது வரும். அதை திடுதிடுப்புன்னு மூலத்தில் சேர்க்க முடியாது. நான் சுட்டிக் காட்டிய அத்தனை பதங்களும் ஒரிஜினல் சமஸ்க்ருத தாது கொண்ட பதங்கள்.

  63. More from Shri Sarang, Sanskrit words in Tamil
    பாதிப்பு, விவசாயம், நாகம், நாணயம், ஞாயம், நீதி, வரம், பாலன், கதை, விஷம், விஷயம், அண்டம், பிண்டம், அகம், கல்யாணம், சுகம், துக்கம், சந்தோஷம்
    எகோபித்த, குணம், தெய்வம், கணம், வணிகம், கர்மம், தவம், கடி, சித்திரம், ரத்தம்,
    வஞ்சனை, வித்தை, ஜீரகம், கண்டம், திசை, த்ரவம், பூமி, காகிதம், மதி,விதி,
    விமானம், கந்தன், மூலம், நிர்மூலம், நிராகரிக்கிறேன், கஸ்மாலம், நாஸ்தி பண்ணுவது, நாகரீக வாழ்வு, பட்டு, தீவரமான, துலா, பாரம், துரித வண்டி,
    வாகனம், திதி, தாம்பூலம், பலன், பழம், ரகசியம், ராசி, உத்தம், யுவன், திரி, யோகம், சூட்சுமம், அறி, விரோதி, ராத்திரி, யாசிப்பது, நேசிப்பது, வருடம், வாத்தியம், வேஷம், ரோஷம், பரிதாபம், தீரன், வீரன், மந்தம், வேகம், அல்பம், பிரமாதம், ஸ்தம்பிச்சு, ஜுரம், ஜந்து, மிருகம், தேவன், தேவி, காளி, விசாலமான, வித்யாசமான, ஆச்சர்யம், முனிவர், அம்பா, மரணம், மணி, நவ, மடம், பிரேதம்,
    பிரயாணம், பத்தி, பக்தி, நிபுணன், நிர்வாகம், மண்டபம், சின்னம், மதம், சிந்தனை, சிரமம், சாந்தம், சொருபம், சங்கம், சமீப, சங்கமம், மோகம், காமம், குரோதம், சித்தம், திண்டிவனம் (திந்த்ரினி வனம்), கோபுரம், கோபம், மூர்தி, சக்தி, யுக்தி, முக்தி, விரக்தி, ராகம், ரீதி, பீதி, நேத்திரம், விதவை, லீலை, ருசி….

  64. While your analysis does not explicitly claim that Tamil descends from Sanskrit, it certainly implies it, based its claims. This analysis is flawed.

    Before commenting on the analysis, I will provide some tips on the formatting of the post. The post is divided into sections, but is not formatted into subheadings, bold text, italic text, etc. The post does not always use capital letters for proper nouns (e.g. "Tamil", "Sanskrit"). It is poorly punctuated, quotations are hard to distinguish from the main text, and spacing between paragraphs is inconsistent, though the division of the text into paragraphs is helpful. Overall, the poor structure and presentation of the text distracts from its content. Blogger provides tools to format text, so please use these to make posts more easily readable.

    Now, let us consider the analysis itself.

    The first argument is based on the age of Sanskrit and Tamil. Even if the same author created Sanskrit and Tamil works, this does not imply any lineage between the two languages, in the same way that a work in Chinese by an English writer does not imply a lineage between the two languages.

    The next argument is based on shared vocabulary between Sanskrit and Tamil. But the presence of a very small number of borrowed words does not mean Tamil is Sanskrit-based or even Sanskritised; compared to the entire Tamil vocabulary, the number of Sanskrit loanwords is insignificant.

    There is also a reference to the Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC). Their language has yet to be deciphered or classified, so claims that it is Aryan or Dravidian are unsupported.

    Where does Tamil come from? During 3rd millennium BC, Neolithic South Indians spoke a language, entirely different from Sanskrit, today called Proto Dravidian (PD). Dialects of PD developed into today's languages South India, with Sanga Tamil emerging in 300 BC.

    Many PD dialects borrowed from Indo-Aryan (IA) vocabulary. These dialects emerged later as separate languages, like Malayalam, which arose from a heavily Sanskritised dialect of Tamil in 9th-13th century AD. Conversely, many IA dialects borrowed PD grammar. Sanskrit developed earlier than Tamil, but the similarity of Indic languages is due to mutual borrowing, not one-sided derivation.

    Now, on the origins of Sanskrit: in 2nd millennium BC, the North Indian civilisation spoke a language today called the Old Indo-Aryan (OIA) language, and a prestige dialect of it was Sanskrit. Other OIA dialects were spoken by civilisations as far west as the Levant. Genetic, cultural and other evidence support the scholarly accepted view of OIA originating in Central Asia. The first Indo-Aryan immigrants reached Punjab c.1800 BC, and northwest India c.1700 BC. The earliest parts of the Rig Veda date back to 1700 BC, and analysis shows that it was created in northwest India. It was only written down after the rise of the Maurya Empire. Note that the earliest written Sanskrit literature was created during the Sangam era.

    The article that you cite, written by T. R. S. Prasanna (who says Vedas are from 3000 BC, and that IVC was Hindu), dismisses work done by linguists on the basis that they must have discounted the astronomical evidence, because they are linguists, not astronomers. The irony is that TRS is no astronomer, linguist, nor historian, but a chemical engineer. But, one need not rely on credentialism to discredit TRS's work, for its flaws are enough.

    The fact that Sanskrit and Hinduism originated outside India may offend some who themselves as the indigenous Indians. But facts do not always support nationalistic beliefs. The original settlers of the India were Austroasiatics, who were neither Aryan, nor Dravidian. Their language eventually evolved into today's Munda, Vietnamese, Khmer, etc.

    Finally, as a disclosure, I speak neither Tamil nor Sanskrit, and have no bias towards either. I speak Malayalam, a language that, as I stated above, developed from a Sanskritised dialect of Tamil between the 9th and 13th centuries.

  65. Sanskrit is a "dump" language and never lived on this planet. It is framed from Latin, Greek, germanic Gothic, Russian and Tamil languages around 1st century BCE. Tamil has written proof which shows 60000 years old language. No Indian languages has emerged from Sanksirt and it is not a language for any Indian languages north or south.

    1. Do you know the meaning of your Name :???

  66. So called aryans and their never spoken dead, dump language has to go to Turkmenistan no place in India. Hindi is a camp language spoken mughal soldiers.

    1. Ha ha ha.. look at this ideot what he is saying!! Ha ha ha ha . omg!! seriously!!! you had a friend there in camp han?? ha ha ha ha

  67. The criteria to assert if a language is derived from another language is not presence of words of the other language. On the other hand, you should only compare the basic words of a language like 'kallu, mannu, neeru, kai, kaal, vaa, poe, aadu, paadu, etc.' These words are mostly common among south indian languages but not at all related to Sanskrit. Some words, even many words, would have been adopted from another language, but it means the influence, not the origin. All Indian languages use so many English words, it does not mean English is the origin of Indian languages.

    Other important criteria is the structure of the words and the sentences. South Indian languages including Tamil are both inflectional and agglutinative while the Indo European languages including Sanskrit are just just inflectional. An example of agglutination is the word 'nallavan', a single word formed by joining two adjacent words of 'nalla' and 'avan'. Another example is 'oodiayavan' = 'oodiaya' + 'avan'. You cannot give the equivalent single words in any Indo European languages including Sanskrit because the morphology (forming of words) is not agglutination.

    Please stop glorification of Sanskrit at the cost of the greatness of other languages like Tamil. As long as we just bask in greatness of just Sanskrit and the epics written in it, we cannot progress. It is true that Sanskrit is one of the greatest languages, but, in addition to the knowledge gained from the literature of Sanskrit, we should accept the other facts and move forward to accept as well as to create more knowledge.

    You can prove me wrong if I am.

  68. When too many scholars have established the antiquity and uniqueness of Tamil this author with no standing is making tall claims and more surprising is the fact that too many people over the year have tried to reason with this person...

  69. First on your blog heading "Did Tamil originate from sanskrit?"

    Even the Marxist historians date Vedas to second millennia BCE. as you said oldest Tamil literature is from 300 BC.
    so Sanskrit literature is older than Tamil literature, but that does not mean that Tamil originate from Sanskrit.

    Your point hat Sanskrit alphabet was adopted for Tamil, cannot establish any link between two languages.
    Alphabet sharing is not a linguistic link.
    As two languages were spoken in India, they happened to adopt same alphabet for them.

    Even basic study of the sound system and the grammar of these two languages can show they are not from same family.

    Sharing words between languages (loan words) also have the same reason. They were being spoken in India, so they shared words.

    Also the star/planet configuration studies for dating texts are mostly done is unscientific way, so don't rely on them.

    I think you have written this blog to counter DK movement propaganda, but you have used many unscientific points in it.

    The best scientific paper, known to me, on how/when and where Dravidian languages have started you can check Franklin C Southworth's paper

    He argues here that Proto-Dravidian developed in Southern Neolithic in Krishna-Godavari basin (not near Indus or Tamilnadu).

    I know many politicians say Harappans were Dravidian speakers and use Aryan Invasion/Migration in second millennia BCE to propagate a theory that Dravidians were forced to migrate to south by them.
    The best rebuttal on that I know is from Michel Danino.

    actually even the people who still support Invasion/migration in second millennia BCE do not support Dravidian harappans anymore, for example Witzel.
    read any of his latest papers on it, he no longer support Dravidians living in Harappan cities/villages.

    J M Kenoyer has been doing research on Harappa and other sites for more than 25 years now. I think it is extensive work like his that have demolished Aryan invasion/migration theory.
    read some of his papers/books if you have not read yet.

    1. Narinder, finally I see a very well balanced post. I agree with everything what you said. I am not a Tamil chauvinist but do derive some kind of satisfaction of the identity of a "South Indian" speaker and disassociate with Sanskrit and its dogmas. I feel I am only less petty than these other guys. I have a question to you. Firstly, it is now well established that Southern languages are a class by itself. But Sanskrit had been shown to be a sister for Latin, Greek, German etc. I am of the opinion that in those days, say 5000 years ago, languages represented the race in some fashion or otherwise. How is it possible that two classes of languages existed in a single geographical area of India? There is not so much of a great geopgraphical divide between North India and South India but I may be wrong because about 200 to 300 miles of thick wooded forests could have been a barrier like btween India and Burma / China even now in the north east. (Even today, a truck driver from Chennai to Delhi is afraid of as they cross MP region!). But even so, it seems to me that the Sanskrit speaking people should have been recent migrants from north west, say about 5000 years or so. How is it that people are claiming that Sanskrit speaking people went from India to faraway places like Germany using an OIT theory? I am seeing that in the entire south, we count the numbers from 1 to 10 as onnu, rendu, moonu, naalu etc which is totally different from Sanskrit but a person in Germany counts the numbers similar to Sanskrit speaking people? All I am saying is if Sanskrit speaking people had a necessity and allure to go to Europe out of India through a narrow North western corridor AND settle there, why did they not cross Vindhyas south and make the people to count the numbers the same way? Can we then not say that AIT or a modified version of it as AMT is correct while OIT is an untenable simple propaganda? Also, I am observing that the scheduled caste people in North India are darker and seem to be living side by side with the upper caste people who seem to be paler. That is, in the same longitude and latitude, people of two different colors are existing today. In this color observation, I am omitting South India for the time being. If my observation is true, does it not mean that it can only happen if one of them is a settler? Would you then say the dark skin settled from the South or the pale skin settled from further north and west? I am using common sense here. I think the pale skinned people came from northwest and settled.
      Honestly, this all should not matter. But there is a burning question. Many Sanskritan Indians think that Sanskrit is THE language of culture of India having an imperialistic attitude. It seems to me that they do not want India to be a federation of secular and free peoples but as a Hindu Sanskritan Sanatan Dharmic country (what it is and what benefits are I do not know). I think if they do push these ideals and by chance the other 3 groups in the south act like us Tamils, India may break up, don't you think? Many impossible things can actually happen, right?


  71. சம்சுகிரிதம் ஒரு அரை செயற்கை கலவை மொழி என்றும் 5-ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் செயப்பட்ட கலவை மொழி அழிந்து போனபின் பிராகிருதம் (வட திராவிட மொழி),பாலி மொழிகளில் இருந்து தோற்றுவிக்கப்பட்ட மொழி என்பதை மறைமலை அடிகள் , பாவாணர் போன்ற மொழி அறிஞர்கள் நன்கு ஆய்ந்து புலப்படுதியுள்ளனர். பாவாணர் அவர்கள் சமசுகிருதத்தில் 2/5 தமிழ் சொற்கள், 2/5 தமிழ் வேரிலிருந்து திரிந்த சொற்களும் 1/5 இடுகுறி சொற்களும், என்று ஆய்ந்து முடிவு செய்துளார்கள். சமசுகிருத அகரவரிசையில் உள்ள நால்வகை ஒழிப்பும் பிராகிருத மொழியில் இருந்தவை...தமிழில் பிராகிருத மொழி சொற்கள் மிகுதி, சம்சுகிரிதம் மற்றும் பிராகிருதம் கலந்து செய்யப்பட்டதால் அவை சமசுகிருத சொற்கள் போல் தோன்றுகின்றன. சமசுகிருதம் ஒரு போதும் பேசப்பட்ட மொழி இல்லை அந்த இழுக்கை பொறுத்துக்கொள்ள முடியாத ஆரியர்கள் வேத மத கொள்கைகளை மக்கள் புறக்கணித்து விடுவார்கள் என்று எண்ணி அது தேவ மொழி என்று கதை கட்டிவிட்டார்கள். பிரம்மசிரி மருவூர் கணேச சாத்திரியார் என்பவர் எழுதியுள்ள "வேத நாதன்" என்ற நூலில் (பக்கம் 194-195) "சிலர் நமது முன்னோர்கள் குடும்பங்களில் சமசுகிருத மொழி பெசபட்டதென்று இக்காலத்தில் சொளுகின்றனர்...இந்திய தேசத்தில் ஒரு போதும் சமசுகிருதம் பேசப்படவில்லை. தென் பகுதியில் இருந்த நமது முன்னோர்கள் தென் மொழியாகிய தமிழி மொழிதான் பேசினர்..வேறு எந்த மொழியும் இல்லை. மகாபரதிதில் அர்ஜுனன் தீர்த்த யாத்திரா "மனலூர்புறாய்" என்ற சொல்லும் கந்த புராணத்தில் "பெண்ணானல்லூர்" என்ற தமிழ் சொல் பயன்படுதியுள்ளார்கள். மேலும் வேத கால மொழியிலும் தமிழ் சொற்கள் மிகுந்து இருந்தது என்று கேம்ப்ரிட்கே பல்கலை பேராசிரியர் ராப்சன் நிறுவியுள்ளார்.
    தமிழ் சொற்கள் சமசுகிருத சொற்கள்
    சவம் சவ
    சவை சபா
    திரு ஸ்ரீ
    தூதன் தூத
    சடம் ஜடம்
    வட்டம் வருத்த
    முரளி முரளி
    சாயை சாயா
    அரசன் ராஜா
    உலகம் லோகம்
    முத்தம் முக்த
    கோபுரம் கோபுர
    உவமை உபமா
    பிண்டம் பிண்ட

  72. சம்சுகிரிதம் ஒரு அரை செயற்கை கலவை மொழி என்றும் 5-ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் செயப்பட்ட கலவை மொழி அழிந்து போனபின் பிராகிருதம் (வட திராவிட மொழி),பாலி மொழிகளில் இருந்து தோற்றுவிக்கப்பட்ட மொழி என்பதை மறைமலை அடிகள் , பாவாணர் போன்ற மொழி அறிஞர்கள் நன்கு ஆய்ந்து புலப்படுதியுள்ளனர். பாவாணர் அவர்கள் சமசுகிருதத்தில் 2/5 தமிழ் சொற்கள், 2/5 தமிழ் வேரிலிருந்து திரிந்த சொற்களும் 1/5 இடுகுறி சொற்களும், என்று ஆய்ந்து முடிவு செய்துளார்கள். சமசுகிருத அகரவரிசையில் உள்ள நால்வகை ஒழிப்பும் பிராகிருத மொழியில் இருந்தவை...தமிழில் பிராகிருத மொழி சொற்கள் மிகுதி, சம்சுகிரிதம் மற்றும் பிராகிருதம் கலந்து செய்யப்பட்டதால் அவை சமசுகிருத சொற்கள் போல் தோன்றுகின்றன. சமசுகிருதம் ஒரு போதும் பேசப்பட்ட மொழி இல்லை அந்த இழுக்கை பொறுத்துக்கொள்ள முடியாத ஆரியர்கள் வேத மத கொள்கைகளை மக்கள் புறக்கணித்து விடுவார்கள் என்று எண்ணி அது தேவ மொழி என்று கதை கட்டிவிட்டார்கள். பிரம்மசிரி மருவூர் கணேச சாத்திரியார் என்பவர் எழுதியுள்ள "வேத நாதன்" என்ற நூலில் (பக்கம் 194-195) "சிலர் நமது முன்னோர்கள் குடும்பங்களில் சமசுகிருத மொழி பெசபட்டதென்று இக்காலத்தில் சொளுகின்றனர்...இந்திய தேசத்தில் ஒரு போதும் சமசுகிருதம் பேசப்படவில்லை. தென் பகுதியில் இருந்த நமது முன்னோர்கள் தென் மொழியாகிய தமிழி மொழிதான் பேசினர்..வேறு எந்த மொழியும் இல்லை. மகாபரதிதில் அர்ஜுனன் தீர்த்த யாத்திரா "மனலூர்புறாய்" என்ற சொல்லும் கந்த புராணத்தில் "பெண்ணானல்லூர்" என்ற தமிழ் சொல் பயன்படுதியுள்ளார்கள். மேலும் வேத கால மொழியிலும் தமிழ் சொற்கள் மிகுந்து இருந்தது என்று கேம்ப்ரிட்கே பல்கலை பேராசிரியர் ராப்சன் நிறுவியுள்ளார்.
    தமிழ் சொற்கள் சமசுகிருத சொற்கள்
    சவம் சவ
    சவை சபா
    திரு ஸ்ரீ
    தூதன் தூத
    சடம் ஜடம்
    வட்டம் வருத்த
    முரளி முரளி
    சாயை சாயா
    அரசன் ராஜா
    உலகம் லோகம்
    முத்தம் முக்த
    கோபுரம் கோபுர
    உவமை உபமா
    பிண்டம் பிண்ட

    1. what is this man. are you illitrate or what. Every body here is chating in English and putting some examples in their languages. But What are you saying here? translate in english dude.

  73. Sanskrit cannot be older than Tamil just becoz is was written first. Its possible that Tamil script was developed later. It might also be possible that both the languages are born from the first human expressions or sign languages which later developed into sounds and then into words. Since there is a sharing of a lot of words, it cud also mean that they developed in an area and as the population spread far and wide, more words were added in both languages.
    I am no language expert so ok with criticism for my armature analysis of things. But I feel we shud not stress on which language came first. That has lead to major political and ethnic wars. Best wud be to accept that boh languages are ingenious to this soil and at the same time, research on the origins can continue alongside. Tamil is a great language becoz it survived and Sanskrit is great becoz it is the mother of most other languages known today.

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    2. Sanket, I do not think you are correct in saying "Sanskrit cannot be older than Tamil". If some one says the other way, that is "Sanskrit is older than Tamil", then that is also wrong. To say such things, you need to go backwards in times several tens of thousands of years. The proto South Indian aka Dravidian (of which Tamil is just a member), is perhaps as old as the first humans in South India. Sanskrit or Old Sanskrit is a language of Vedic people of north western corner of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan and further. It is definitely not native to "Indian" soil. Proto South Indian and Munda languages of Eastern India are the native languages of the soil. That is why Sanskrit still breaths only in Brahmana circles while the others are the languages of the people. Also remember that a mass of people can be made to change their tongue (like the current day Hindi speakers possibly) but they the creation of a language is deeply rooted in human evolution and history.

    3. First of all the notion that Sanskrit was written first itself is wrong. As per the archaeological evidences available only tamil letters are the oldest in India(excepting the Indus Valley letters). Even if you take Indus Valley Letters also, R. Madivanan has deciphered all the Indus Symbols and proved it to be Tamil(But this theory was not accepted, so lets not take it into account. Consider also that no one could decipher IVC Symbols in Sanskrit)

  74. Sanskrit is certainly one of the most ancient languages of the world which was also derived from ancient unstructured languages like Prakrit. All the languages should have some source. Certainly Tamil also will have one like Pali (vernacular sanskrit with words like puppa for pushpa, vagga for varga). Many a words like eluthu (likitha), mathirai (mAtra) appears in old tamil works. Before Panini, altleast 25 different grammar schools were there. One of them has helped to structure Tamil (Refer Arthur Burnell and David shulman). So what? The hatred towards sanskrit is meaningless. Keep religion and caste apart read the extensive works on maths, etymology, grammar, music, drama, medicine, philosophy written in that language. Think rationally, we all are simply products of evolution. Is language our culture?

    1. Guru, I agree with you but beg to defer. Sanskrit just does not represent just a language. It also represents a social system which is non secular in nature with full set of inequalities, injustices and imbalances. So if it has earned hatred, it could be deservedly so. Tamil literature is fairly secular in nature. Gunzo.

    2. What is social system to do with the language. When a social system has categorization of people there ought to be rules for each category. If you are talking about untouchability, Shudra/Brahmin etc - those were division politics of British. Even in Indica or Chines Pligrim books - there is mention of varna system - there is no description of slavery or inequalities. Even in south before the influence of northern social system - there were social system similar to varna (king, warrior, trader and worker). All hatredness spread after British invasion (e.g. Aryan/Dravidian divide, Colorising Varna system, Changing Indian Education System, Altering Manuscripts). There are ample evidences.
      If you look at the history of India - it fights with in itself - but welcome foreign invasion or if lost in war enter truce with them. That is how We allowed Islamic invasion, Portugese and later British. It is sad Indians continue that tradition today. Now it is fight within states, languages. All invasioners made the best use of it as the history shows.

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. (Part 1 of 3) Sundar, Can I request you to be patient and read what I am posting now even though it will be a very angry post, it should do good.
      Firstly, let me tell you unequivocally that untouchability existed in 10th century AD in TN. Do you have any Tamil friends? Please talk to them and ask them as to who was "Nandan (or Nandanar)". Or google "Nandan Dalit Entering Chidambaram temple". Please read. Note down the time frame to be 10th century AD. Very shortly: Nandan was a scheduled caste farm worker whose only dream in life was to see his God Nataraja. He was laughed at. His landlord gave him insurmountable work every day. So he went on saying: ‘I will go tomorrow’ every day. On one night he cried to his Lord and the story goes, the lord sent his gang to do the farm works overnight and the landlord was dumbfound and released him the next morning. Nandan went to the temple. Because of his birth, he could not enter the temple but then the Nandhi hid his view of the lord. The Lord moved the Nandhi and the Brahmins were spell bound and they allowed him inside the temple and Nandan became one with his Lord and nobody saw him after that". I am not asking you to believe the story. That is not the point. The fact is that the story vividly portrays the conditions of the society at that time and was etched in poetry at that time. This was the hay days of the imperial Cholas. Nandan is deified as one of the 63 Sivite saints and is present in every temple where there are statues for the 63 whoever they were. If South India was in this sad state, I do not think the North would have been better! Kindly fix the untouchability problem in the North before accusing the British! They are gone, long gone!

      Now, I am getting angry. Where did you learn that the British created untouchability? You are so disingenuous or just gullible enough to believe some propaganda. Man, not a single white colonist had set foot in Tamil country by 10th century AD. No muslim had ever set foot either. Why are you spreading falsehood? I would not be astonished if you say that the British inserted this poetry in Tamil literature and even placed Nandan's statue in the temples! Have you read Manu Smirti? How can a book of this kind be written by any person? Are you saying that the British changed the Manu Smirti and inserted stanzas?

    5. (Part 2 of 3) Now, I am getting angry. Where did you learn that the British created untouchability? You are so disingenuous or just gullible enough to believe some propaganda. Man, not a single white colonist had set foot in Tamil country by 10th century AD. No muslim had ever set foot either. Why are you spreading falsehood? I would not be astonished if you say that the British inserted this poetry in Tamil literature and even placed Nandan's statue in the temples! Have you read Manu Smirti? How can a book of this kind be written by any person? Are you saying that the British changed the Manu Smirti and inserted stanzas?
      Let me tell you this: The British were honorable people. They instituted an educational system which levelled the playing field and opened knowledge and power for all people. They gave us laws, treated us equally and fairly and paved roads and developed the tea and coffee gardens. They gave us culture and liberated us from oppression and tyranny of millenniums.

      Where the hell do you get this propaganda material that the British invented this theory to get a North / South divide? My dear, the Madras province was secured by Robert Clive with some minor skirmishes! Caldwell studied our languages and presented a theory. He was a scholar. He did a tremendous service for our identity. Why are you so intolerant of our identity as Dravidians? Why are you so intolerant that our languages are different from Sanskrit? Why are you intolerant to our quoting antiquity to our languages? What is your purpose?

      You are quoting that the 4 caste system of the North was merit based? What is your basis? This is utter nonsense and propaganda. Can you tell me why Karna was not allowed admission to the schools even though he was a good warrior? All the 5 brothers and the 100 cousins got admission and Karna could not get in, why? Birth came first or "qualities" came first? Answer me point blank please. My dear insane person Sunder, how were the "qualities" of the children decided and at what age were they stratified into the 4 classes / castes? Did the children write some exminations like UPSC, IAS, SAT, GRE, Board examinations? I was told Viswamitra became a Brahmin after passing some hard tests! O Wow! ViswaMitra had to go through hoops to become a Brahmin when the sons of Brahmins next door became Brahmins just like that, right? All the 100 brothers and the 5 brothers had a the token for entry into the schools just by their birth while Karna had to go through hoops and remain in misery, right?

      I am concluding that you Hindutvas are hate mongers, propaganda people, thoroughly insensitive people. After all what can I expect from the people who created the Manu Smirti, the Vedas which planted seeds of casteism. I am not mincing words, the British were good administrators, honest people. Sanskritan literature is all casteism, filth, deceit, treachery, fantasy useless dogmas.

    6. (Part 3 of 3) Sundar, You asked me how a language has anything to do with a social system. In general yes and no. Languages like English, Tamil. Malyalam etc are secular. These are "fair and free". But Sanskrit is not. This language for eternity, is bonded with the Vedas, dogmas, castes and all such derivatives. It is a language wedded to Vedic Society. It is because people of your own kind have said it is the language of the Gods. So, It is not an ordinary language. In fact even today, who is pushing Sanskrit? It is the saffronists and Hindutvas like you. This language cannot exist in a secular environment and India will be doomed with it if we give importance to it. Privately, you can learn it, do whatever you want but pushing it into government should be a no no.

      Besides, a language gives pride, culture and identity. English Language gives the knower a vast amount of scientific and technical material. Tamil and such languages do not (at least at this stage). So we either have to learn English or create new words and I believe both are attempted and peaceful coexistence is possible. But Sanskrit, for all times to come, has to exist with Vedas, Castes, Manusmirti and all useless dogmas. Everybody who talks about Sanskrit knows what it is all about.

  75. 7500 sanskrit inscriptions vs 20000 Tamil inscriptions found in India.
    Does it say which language was more prolific....

    Recent Survey on Indian Epigraphy (1996) places inscriptions of Tamil Nadu at the top of the list. The categories of language, alphabet and number of inscriptions on both stone and copper plates also indicate Tamil Nadu as the first among Indian States. From this survey it can easily be understood that Tamil Nadu has the bulk of inscriptions found in India. It has been estimated with a fair degree of accuracy that the inscriptions written in Tamil occupy the first position in volume, amounting nearly to 20,000, followed by those in Kannada (10,600), Sanskrit (7,500) and Telugu (4,500). Inscriptions in Tamil language are noticed from the third century BCE onwards. (Source: Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India Volume 19 : 1993)

    1. A good reference, It just means "prolific" - abundant. But this could also mean - (1) Tamil is more recent - hence more found (2) Others did not write/record (3) Other states archeology was not pursued as was in TN. Not sure that proves antiquity of any language

  76. You have said this bcoz you either doesn't know the truth or you doesn't want to know the truth. If you are from the first category, then please watch the videos below:

    You may or may not accept the video but do watch it it definitely worth your time. Remember there is no evidence for your Rigveda and sanskrit claims

    Some facts to prove that Kundalini Yoga is from tamils:

    Some facts on Tamils religion "Aaseevagam"

    Some facts on the origin of temples

    Some True research facts on how old tamil is(This video is in tamil, do see it if u understand tamil):

    1. Tell me the meaning of Kundali and Yoga in Tamil. and explain here. And then tell me what is actually kundali yoga. Then i will give you proper answer on this.

  77. See the ancient civilization of tamil.

    1. Dont keep sending you tube links here. Go read some research paper and type something relevent. Else dont waste time here. Do you understand anything up there? Atleast people are figting with facts. What you fighting with.."YOUTUBE" ????? bullshit Man

  78. Hats off Aditya!! you fought like a brave lion here to all here who keep commenting pointless here like a copy cut from wikipedia or some bullshit website just to prove something which is not true.Indeed your provided proof are admirable. But thing is there is no point singing a nightangle song infront of buffalo. I see instead reading your full comment these people keep on sending comment just to irritate you and more over they just read first line of your comment or find any relevant sentance and reply a story on that which you ultimately prove wrong again. But what to do its a common fact the person who is wrong shouts more!! Ha Ha. And i do not know why any other person good in sanskrit like you is backing you up here. Its like one man fighting. Or may be its not required as you alone is sufficent here. dont worry aditya Truth always win. They say your comment is sanskrit lover. as if theirs are very neutral to Tamil. I see that stupid guy jacob started abusive language first and later on like a sheep others. Ha Ha Mr. Jacob go do your DNA testing and am sure you will not find your family originated from any christians. You are totaly a fool man just bcz you know how to copy and cut from internet. others are atleast providing some details. You are simply bluffinng bull shit. Aditya keep up the good work. !!! Respect your patience and wise comments. :)

  79. Hindus (meaning those who lived in the specific region) wrote Veda and Vedanta. The whole world learned about them through the translations of Aurangzeb's half-brother Dara Shikoh into Persian which was later translated into French and other languages. Veda comes from the root word “Vid” meaning knowledge and any discussion by the people of this region should follow that tradition of obtaining and distilling knowledge and should not be interested in proving anything one way or the other at any cost.
    There are so many words common in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit acknowledged by the scholars. These languages are classified as derived from the origin of Indo-European language. Since there are many common words in these languages, many linguistic study suggests a common origin in Indo-European language. The assumption here is that there must have been another language before Sanskrit (Indo-European) that must have been the root for all these languages.
    For our discussion on Tamil vs Sanskrit, we should follow the same logic used world over. We should conclude that Tamil and Sanskrit having many words in common (certainly more words than those that are common between Sanskrit and Greek or Latin) must have originated from one common language. Certainly, Europeans could have easily written that Sanskrit originated from Latin or Greek since there are many words in common. Scholars of Historical Linguistics have not done that. In such a situation it is a good idea to think that these languages must have had a common origin like that of an Indo-European language.
    A similar approach should be acceptable to us to conclude that the Tamil and Sanskrit might have had a common origin in another ancient Indian language that existed before Sanskrit, we may also call it Indo-European (like other European Historical Linguistic scholars) language. If anyone wants to challenge that the Indo part of the Indo European language must have been none other than Sanskrit, well go ahead and write thesis on the historical linguistics and hope some university will accept it. The saddest part of the Vedic culture was its oral tradition and unlike the 7000 year old Egyptian, or 5000 year old, Mesopotamian tradition which recorded things in stone and tablets. In the absence of written evidences, it is fair to accept, a common origin of the languages like the Europeans have done for their languages along with the Indian language.
    Existing literary works of neither Tamil nor Sanskrit will suddenly vanish or lose its worth or shine just because one group or the other perceives victory at the end of all the exchanges in the blogs of this nature or even submits a thesis to a university on the subject proving one thing which could be disproved by another thesis at any time in the future. That being the case, I suggest that we first take up the job of proving that the Indo-European language from which all the modern European languages emerged, is indeed Sanskrit. If we can prove that then it is evident that Tamil also emerged from Sanskrit along with other European languages. It is better to take the fight one level higher and try it with European languages and then come down to fight here locally. This will ensure that all our arguments are of internationally accepted levels and then we can use the same to establish the origin of Tamil. All this exercise of searching for the truth and knowledge should be conducted in decent language. All the best.

  80. The earliest known inscriptions in Sanskrit date to the 1st century BCE. They are in the Brahmi script, which was originally used for Prakrit, not Sanskrit. It has been described as a "paradox" that the first evidence of written Sanskrit occurs centuries later than that of the Prakrit languages which are its linguistic descendants.

  81. The earliest indian inscription in india found till date is in tamil and kannada not sanskrit